Rimfires for self defense

[Jaco]

Lone Star,

Swartklip means Black Stone.


So with all this flaming I gather the best choice would not be a HP, but a solid.......

Lot of drama for a simple question

 

[Gerald McDonald]

Lots of drama for a simple question, thats the truth. Probab;y solids will handle more problems, but any quality ammo will be better than nothing.
Gerald

 

[Mike Irwin]

"You should carry as much as you reasonably can."

Wow, Geech, you finally click onto something.

REASONABLENESS.

Who's to say what's REASONABLE for me?

Who's to say what's REASONABLE for you?

Why isn't a .50 DE REASONABLE for you?

Could it be that what makes the .50 DE UNREASONABLE for you might also make the .45 UNREASONABLE for me, or some of the other posters here?

Or are you, and others, so enamored with the .45 and your own opinion that you've lost sight of the fact that your needs, requirements, and restrictions don't necessarily meet my needs, requirements, and restrictions?

If you care to keep this above a personal level, which you're tipping over to in your last message, that's great.

If you want to become petty and childish and start with name calling, that's fine, too.

But the question remains. Why do you limit yourself with a .45 where there are larger, more powerful options available that should, by all accounts, be even more effective?

Your argument seems to be less "carry what you can reasonably carry" and more "carry what I say you should carry. If it's right for me, it must be right for you."

That doesn't seem to be much of an argument, just a blind adherence to the theory that bigger is necessarily better just because it's... bigger?

But I'm certainly not going to question an individual's quest for longevity (go back to the deathwish quote), as others have here and in other threads, if he/she chooses to carry a .22 or other small caliber weapon.

Did I have a death wish because I carried a .22 for several years and had COMPLETE faith in it, and my abilities with it?

Have I lost about half of that death wish because I now generally carry a .38 Spl.?

Does that death wish come back when I decide that, for whatever reason, the .38 is inappropriate and the .22 is better suited to a particular situation?

Does my death wish go most of the way away, but not quite, when I carry a .32 ACP?

How about those times when I occasionally strap on my .41 Magnum? Much more powerful than the .45 ACP. In that situation, who has the death wish? Me? Or the person armed with the weak .45?

But you still haven't addressed the concept that it's the person behind the gun, not the gun itself, that is the critical factor here, and I'm truly beginning to wonder if you don't fall into the "Me got .45, me invincible" camp.

 

[KMKeller]

Mike, go easy on Geech, he's a newbie and knows not to whom he's speaking...

 

[Geech]

Once again, Mike, you have filled my mouth with your own words, and demolished straw man after straw man. I'm done with you, you obviously cannot argue reasonably.

 

[DontShootMe]

 

[English John]

CHOICES

Hey Children- fight nice!

When I was in RVN I "acquired" a 4" .38 w/ 158 gr. RNL (all I could find). A dog that set off a land mine had to be destroyed, so instead of using an M14 I shot it in the back of the head w/ the .38- it got up and staggered away! A shot to the spine dropped it. The next day I "acquired" a .45 and hardball (all I could carry). When I got home I carried a M1911 .45 w/HP 24/7 for 10 YEARS. (I had learned that you really should have a gun handy, and what can happen if you don't. I also learned no handgun is as effective as an M14, but the handgun is on your hip and the rifle is in the Jeep.)

When I pinned on a badge, I carried a 4" .357 (revolvers only!) and Win. 145 gr. Silvertip; issue, no choice. Off duty was an SP101, same ammo, same reason. When we could go to autos, I wanted a 9mm+P; but, no choice. Back to the M1911, ammo was .45 Win. ST; issue, no choice. BUG was a DA .38 BJT derringer (now American Derringer) in an Alessi ankle holster. (If someone comes up to the door of your cruiser it is easier to draw the ankle gun than your weapon from a SS III; try it sometime.) Off duty was the .45, or a PPK/S in .380.
Now the LE weapons are all locked up in the safe. I went from the PPK/S to a snub .38 M36, to a 3" M37, to a FEG SMC-380, to a NAA .22. (See the trend to smaller/ lighter?) Now EDC 24/7 is a KT .32. That is MY CHOICE, and no, I don't have a death wish.

Maybe our .22 carrier has no choice, maybe that is ;
all he can afford, all he can conceal,
all he can handle, all his local law allows,
all he can carry, all his family can handle,
maybe he likes it.

Yes, it is better than nothing, and a (fill-in-the-blank) is better. Yet, it is predictable that almost everyone will suggest;
a larger gun (a DE v. a .22? how would you carry THAT concealed? Every day?)
an auto (can you really hide that .22 target pistol? Where, next to the DE?)
a larger caliber (see "all" the reasons above).

The exact same thing happened with the thread about the ".38 snub v. the .380" last week- "you GOTTA carry a 9mm, a .357, a .45, etc., BECAUSE THAT IS MY CHOICE". (I think they missed the DE.)

To paraphrase Massad Ayoob; you need Mental Awareness and Preparedness, Tactics, and Skill with the Equipment. Notice the equipment is last.

Sorry G., I gotta go with Mike Iwrin on this one.
Mike, you should write more.

 

[Gerald McDonald]

A friend who is a peace officer made the comment "it would be a faulty assumption to think a guy with a 22 cant kill you grave yard dead before you could blink"
Gerald

 

[Oleg Volk]

 

[WESHOOT2]

SERIOUS ANSWER (FEEL BETTER?)

I use a 22LR as my 'always' ONLY because I can guarantee you it's 'always' with me.
Always.

My PT22 back-up 'always' is always hanging around because it's small and reliable.

I often add a big manly gun (or two) to my wardrobe, but THAT choice is more affectation than necessity unless I'm visiting certain locations.
I really don't live in Chicago anymore.

As for the 'correct' choice for 22 ammo, consider ONLY reliability first.
Then consider a lead HP.............

 

[chaim]

To paraphrase Massad Ayoob; you need Mental Awareness and Preparedness, Tactics, and Skill with the Equipment. Notice the equipment is last.

Um, not to nitpick but equipment isn't last, "skill with the Equipment" is last. It seems that the equipment itself is down the list a bit further to simply assumed that one has something, anything, that is what they consider to be at least the minimally acceptable equipment. Anyway, that's what it says to me- everything else is most important, what you have is just the tool that you need everything else to be able use effectively.

Personally, I would prefer more than a .22lr but I don't think it is useless. My personal defense caliber preference is 9mm. It is cheap to practice, it has minimal recoil for quick follow up shots, it is accurate and it is powerful enough for most self defense needs. However, for some people they may well consider the .45acp to be the bare minimum- fine, for them it is then since they won't have peace of mind with anything else (kinda screws up their confidence in their equipment which is a very important aspect as well). For others they may find less than 9mm power to be more than acceptable (as do I, it is just that I prefer 9mm and find it close to the ideal combination of factors). Some people may have trouble concealing even an MK9 under certain circumstances (who am I to say what someone else can carry comfortably enough to consistentely carry) and others may have health reasons to have trouble with the recoil of anything more. Others may simply have a .22lr that is far more reliable than their other guns, or far more accurate, or they don't have anything else, or...

Heck, I can even see a few situations in which I may see myself carrying a .22lr when moving to a CCW state. Certainly I will probably have one in a backup role, as well as other likely backups as well. I may go w/ a .22lr snub with 9 shots- a snub is hard to master and usually uncomfortably to practice with, especially in the lighter more easily carried ultra-lights and a .22 may be a partial answer(I'll probably get one to train with and it may be my only snub for a while when in a CCW situation- then I may go w/ another higher caliber snub again later, or I may decide not to).

Anyway, the point (as it has been for others here) is to choose what works best for you. If it is .22lr for whatever reason, it may not be the ideal choice but what is ideal really. There are so many considerations, especially if you are going to carry, that you must make the determination yourself. A .22lr can certainly do the job. And in answer to the original question- I think I would go solid point and relatively heavy to maxamize penatration as much as possible (though also you must choose ammo that is reliable in your gun as your first ammo choice criteria).

 

[TheMariner]

Sorry, I got tired of reading everyone's post about halfway through the second page, so If I state anything someone else says, consider it my seconding that opinion.

First of all, I am a professional marksman and have been shooting the .22LR for 11 years. While not a long time compared to some of the geezers around here, I notice that alot fo them complain about the rimfire's primer problems... Lemme disspell some of teh bull crap about that.

Sure, the dirt cheap, no name ammo has these problems.. However, even though REM Thunderbolt is on the low end of the ammo price range, most Failure to Fires are actually the firing pin of teh gun, not the ammo. I know this because sport pistols anyways have a balancing act between trigger weight and firing pin strength. However, Ruger MkII, for example, has always had enough punch to fire just about any .22LR you can throw at it. Same with a P22 I own. THus, the key to reliable operation firing lays not in the bullet but in the firing pin spring... it is key to maintain these!

Also, some guns are particular about feeding. You just have to see... FMJ normally works in most guns but JHP and lead-nose have stove-piping problems and tend to be more brand-name suspectable...

THus, my ammo recommendations go as follows.
TAKE NOTHING BUT HI-VELOCITY AMMO...
there is really no point in taking subsonic ammo since you really wouldn't want to be trying 50yard shots like we do in competition. All the stuff you posted seems fast enough though.

Beware of light rounds... I really wouldn't take anything under 40gr if I could help it... Though the pointed 35gr might be interesting... Probably want to alternate... 45gr solid, 35gr Low Drag, 45gr, 35gr... etc... I do something similar with my P22, alternating between 40gr FMJ (REM Thunderbolts) and 38gr JHP (WIN brass jacketed Hi-Vel) in a ten round clip... I suggest leading off with the heavier round...

For an auto
Practice ACCURATE rapid fire... three or five round bursts, depending on clip size... you want the burst to divide into the clip capacity evenly... makes counting easier.

For a revolver
Well, accuracy is of even bigger importance.. Rapid delivery is slower so accuracy must take up teh slack

Now, when I say accuracy, I'm not talking about bull's eyes or any of that bull crap... I'm talking vital zones... face is good, so is the upper torso, from about halfway up teh rib cage and inboard of the shoulders. You have the tops of the lungs, the heart, the major veins and arteries, the throat, the spine, etc.... Be able to hit these rapidly and consistently...

Other than that, carry atleast two reloads...

Good luck... and sorry that not everyone can read you post and just answer you question...

 

[Newton]

Chaim

I thought your self defence weapon of choice is a S&W Ladysmith loaded with .38 Special +P, I guess you've switched your allegiances

Newton

 

[Graystar]

Right on Oleg!

Unfortunately I can't carry anymore now that I live in NYC.

 

[Mannlicher]

Craigz reminds us, about the Regan shooting: "So you're going to base your whole defense strategy on a 20 second piece of news footage from 20 years ago? It looks to me like those men were taking cover, except maybe for Brady, who was hit just over the eyebrow and suffered brain damage."

....and I say, final proof that a .22 is useless. Brady has been a millstone around everyone's neck ever since. We would be better off with him dead. A more powerful hand gun would have done that.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Pragmatic but in poor taste. Mr.Brady isn't responsible for the actions of the opportunistic harpy who happend to be his wife.

 

[Tamara]

I'm just offended at Oleg's choice of a "comparison gun" in his poster...

(It's not like my V-10 is that hard to tote! )

 

[surfinUSA]

Like in street racing as a kid. "Ya run what ya brung".

I don't usually carry a 22 for defensive purposes. But I have in the past when there was nothing else available to me. And I was happy to have had it available at the time.

 

[chaim]

Chaim

I thought your self defence weapon of choice is a S&W Ladysmith loaded with .38 Special +P, I guess you've switched your allegiances

Newton,

You are both right and have a good memory, that is what I usually use for HD, and something similar will be my primary CCW if/when I'm in a CCW state. However, caliber only I do prefer 9mm to .38 or .38+P for defensive use (a little more power, no more recoil). Actually, for general use, not only SD, I prefer 9mm because you can get dirt cheap practice rounds (even cheaper than .38spl) and very effective defensive rounds for it. For fun only I prefer .357mag though. Of course, as per my above post, I don't see .22lr as being unusable for defense and it is even possible I might go to a snub in .22lr (at least occasionally) as a back-up gun.

 

[sm]

First rule: have a gun.

I have used a 22lr handgun to "stop an immediate threat", more than once. Not as comforting as something bigger...comforting in the fact threat stopped.

 

[Wildalaska]

If you dont think a .22 is effective for self defense, let me...

O wait cant say more than that, someone might take me seriously, gotta get my tongue out of cheek

By the way love Olegs poster...that little baby is in my pocket every day...and Cratz, when I go to NYC sonn, Ill be just like you...I wont carry it

 

[English John]

Chaim..........

Chaim: I kinda agree, with an explanation. On Ayoob's quote: You tie Skill and Equipment together, and obviously you should be skilled with your weapon(s) of choice. I split them because I thought you should also apply the other traits (Mental Awareness and Preparedness, Tactics) skillfully. If you could, you might avoid the need for the weapon. If you are well trained (skillful) the exact weapon wouldn't matter. If we gave (choose your favorite gun-guru) a .22 instead of what he likes to carry he could probably still do a credible job of self defense. You used to carry a .38, and now a 9mm, and I would guess that you are good (skilled) with either should the situation degrade to the point of actual use. So I guess I meant it would be good to be cross-trained (skilled) with many weapons, and not just firearms. So I place equipment at the end of the string (last resort).
My concern, on this and many other posts, is the large number of posters that come out of the woodwork not just to inform that perhaps a .38, or a 9, or 10, or a forty-something might be better than a .22, but have the attitude that IF YOU DON'T CARRY (my favorite gun) YOU'RE GONNA DIE. I don't think so.
As an Army Officer and LEO I carried a .45, and thought it a good choice at the time. After I took off the badge I thought a .38 or .380 sufficient for a new lifestyle (I don't have to place myself in harm's way anymore- if harm comes to me I have confidence). When I don't carry a gun I carry a KT.32.
You, my friend, hit the nail on the head when you said "Anyway, the point (as it has been for others here) is to choose what works best for you". Personal decisions should be, well.......... personal. Stay safe. English John

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I agree you should choose what works for you -- but bear in mind a self-defense gun is like a parachute. There's really only one way to know if it works for you -- and finding out that it doesn't do the job is more than a little embarassing.

 

[badgerrr]

Hmmmmm.....Rimfire for self Defense?

I'm thinking .56 Rimfire Spencer.

Them little .44 Henry Rimfires just don't have the snort to suit me.