There has been lots of talk of Bill loading up a ROA with smokeless (Trailboss?) and a 250-255 grn bullet. Eventually someone posted a screenshot of the page in a book written by what I’m thinking was someone who worked closely with Bill Ruger. Does anyone have this book and can supply a screenshot as there’s a fellow on a traditional forum calling BS because he just doesn’t believe it so I’d like to crosspost a screenshot along with the book title and author if I can.
ROA Loaded W/ Smokeless Evidence
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arcticap
Member
It's claimed that Bill Ruger proofed an ROA himself with Bullseye powder and not Trail Boss.
There's one such post by grter made on July 16, 2018:[See Post #6]--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-adapters-for-ruger-old-army-any-good.839053/
..."I would never fill any of those after market cylinders up with anything finer than 3f which can be a pretty good stout load depending on cylinder capacity but I don't believe for a second those cylinders are anywhere near as stout as the Ruger old army cylinders one of which survived a load filled to the brim with smokeless bullseye powder without any damage by Bill Ruger himself."...
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Another by J-Bar in 2016 [Post #2]
"Ruger proof tested the Old Army with chambers full of Bullseye, but I don't know about any others."--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/question.814618/#post-10427863
There's one such post by grter made on July 16, 2018:[See Post #6]--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-adapters-for-ruger-old-army-any-good.839053/
..."I would never fill any of those after market cylinders up with anything finer than 3f which can be a pretty good stout load depending on cylinder capacity but I don't believe for a second those cylinders are anywhere near as stout as the Ruger old army cylinders one of which survived a load filled to the brim with smokeless bullseye powder without any damage by Bill Ruger himself."...
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Another by J-Bar in 2016 [Post #2]
"Ruger proof tested the Old Army with chambers full of Bullseye, but I don't know about any others."--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/question.814618/#post-10427863
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arcticap
Member
Posted by Robhof in 2011: [See Post #17]--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...loaded-at-a-higher-level.618955/#post-7648825
"I have a book: Black Powder Revolvers-Reproductions & Replicas by Dennis Adler that also quotes Ruger as stating the gun was proofed with Bullseye. but warns the public to not try it, and not use any modern powder in any B/p revolver."
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Posted by mbott in 2003:[See Post #29]--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...blackpowder-revolver.32874/page-2#post-411404
The Old Army Blackpowder Revolver
The Old Army Blackpowder Revolver:
Harry Sefried Remembers
.
.
.
We finished the design, and it sat there for awhile, while we were preoccupied on other projects. After a couple of years, Larry Larson went over the possibilities to prepare for production.
The gun was of incredible strength, as Bill always insisted. I decided the logical way to test these was to do so with Bullseye smokeless powder-definitely not recommended to the public! I'd stoke the cylinders up, and pop the cap. You can't, however, ignite Bullseye with the spark from a percussion cap going through a tiny little hole in a blackpowder cylinder nipple. We opened these up, and boy, we were getting ignition! We found we couldn't get enough Bullseye in to blow the cylinder. Even if not filled up, we could not blow it with Bullseye powder! (Again, not to be tried at home!)
"Ruger & His Guns"
by R. L. Wilson
1996
Page 126
"I have a book: Black Powder Revolvers-Reproductions & Replicas by Dennis Adler that also quotes Ruger as stating the gun was proofed with Bullseye. but warns the public to not try it, and not use any modern powder in any B/p revolver."
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Posted by mbott in 2003:[See Post #29]--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...blackpowder-revolver.32874/page-2#post-411404
The Old Army Blackpowder Revolver
The Old Army Blackpowder Revolver:
Harry Sefried Remembers
.
.
.
We finished the design, and it sat there for awhile, while we were preoccupied on other projects. After a couple of years, Larry Larson went over the possibilities to prepare for production.
The gun was of incredible strength, as Bill always insisted. I decided the logical way to test these was to do so with Bullseye smokeless powder-definitely not recommended to the public! I'd stoke the cylinders up, and pop the cap. You can't, however, ignite Bullseye with the spark from a percussion cap going through a tiny little hole in a blackpowder cylinder nipple. We opened these up, and boy, we were getting ignition! We found we couldn't get enough Bullseye in to blow the cylinder. Even if not filled up, we could not blow it with Bullseye powder! (Again, not to be tried at home!)
"Ruger & His Guns"
by R. L. Wilson
1996
Page 126
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arcticap
Member
J-Bar posted in 2014: [See Post #4]--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...in-of-the-ruger-old-army.768709/#post-9728820
From "Ruger and His Guns" by R. L. Wilson, ppg. 125-6:
"The Old Army Blackpowder Revolver: Harry Sefried Remembers
(Harry Sefried was an engineer who was hired by Sturm, Ruger in 1959 and was in on the ground floor of the development of many Ruger firearms)
'Bill and I were interested in antique blackpowder guns, and my own favorite was the Rogers & Spencer. Bill had several percussion revolvers in his collection, including the prettiest little Remington Pocket Model, on which he styled the Ruger Bearcat.
'He said it would be nice to make a percussion revolver that was a really good shooter, and as close to indestructible that could be made, with all the usual features. With the advances in our investment casting program, we had come to a point where we could do just about anything. ...
'I started to work with a clean sheet of paper. None of this stuff of no topstrap, like the Colt percussion revolvers, or simply duplicating the antique design. This sturdy revolver would be basically a Super Blackhawk in percussion, to utilize Blackhawk components as much as possible...
'One of the details we wanted was no screws (since, for one thing, they always shot loose in the percussion revolvers of the 19th century), except for attaching the grip frame and securing the hammer, trigger, and cylinder stop within the frame.'
...and it goes on to describe the Old Army's proof testing with Bullseye powder...
As to why the Old Army was discontinued; my guess is Bill Ruger died and the subsequent managers never shot cowboy action matches.
From "Ruger and His Guns" by R. L. Wilson, ppg. 125-6:
"The Old Army Blackpowder Revolver: Harry Sefried Remembers
(Harry Sefried was an engineer who was hired by Sturm, Ruger in 1959 and was in on the ground floor of the development of many Ruger firearms)
'Bill and I were interested in antique blackpowder guns, and my own favorite was the Rogers & Spencer. Bill had several percussion revolvers in his collection, including the prettiest little Remington Pocket Model, on which he styled the Ruger Bearcat.
'He said it would be nice to make a percussion revolver that was a really good shooter, and as close to indestructible that could be made, with all the usual features. With the advances in our investment casting program, we had come to a point where we could do just about anything. ...
'I started to work with a clean sheet of paper. None of this stuff of no topstrap, like the Colt percussion revolvers, or simply duplicating the antique design. This sturdy revolver would be basically a Super Blackhawk in percussion, to utilize Blackhawk components as much as possible...
'One of the details we wanted was no screws (since, for one thing, they always shot loose in the percussion revolvers of the 19th century), except for attaching the grip frame and securing the hammer, trigger, and cylinder stop within the frame.'
...and it goes on to describe the Old Army's proof testing with Bullseye powder...
As to why the Old Army was discontinued; my guess is Bill Ruger died and the subsequent managers never shot cowboy action matches.
ThomasT
Member
Remember there was a Youtube video in a thread on here a few weeks ago and the guy in the video was using smokeless powder in his BP revolver.
Found the thread. Posted by Arcticap. The guy that comes up with all kinds of cool information.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...der-in-1858-remington-revolver-pietta.841864/
Found the thread. Posted by Arcticap. The guy that comes up with all kinds of cool information.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...der-in-1858-remington-revolver-pietta.841864/
arcticap
Member
andrewstorm posted in 2011: [See Post #520]--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/the-ruger-old-army-club.538088/page-21#post-7815191
here's another myth to confirm
In looking for the article in which bill ruger tells the story of the design of his beloved r o a ,Ive found a source of the story of the proof testing of the r o a in john taffins book six guns he describes a 457 Rb being seated on a cylinder full of bullseye smokeless powder and fired,it held and the r o a was accepted as safe for the public to enjoy ,this is one for the myth busters.........
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Direct Quote from John Taffin's
Single Action Sixguns by John Taffin
23. The Ruger Old Army"--->>> http://www.sixgun-forums.com/sixguns/content/23-ruger-old-army
..."Ruger proof tested the prototype Old Army by seating a round ball on top of the cylinder full of Bullseye. If such a test were tried using a cartridge case and bullet in almost any revolver results would normally be disastrous. The Old Army held, however it should be fired only with black powder or black powder substitutes and never with smokeless powder."...
Who is John Taffin--->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taffin
here's another myth to confirm
In looking for the article in which bill ruger tells the story of the design of his beloved r o a ,Ive found a source of the story of the proof testing of the r o a in john taffins book six guns he describes a 457 Rb being seated on a cylinder full of bullseye smokeless powder and fired,it held and the r o a was accepted as safe for the public to enjoy ,this is one for the myth busters.........
--------------------
Direct Quote from John Taffin's
Single Action Sixguns by John Taffin
23. The Ruger Old Army"--->>> http://www.sixgun-forums.com/sixguns/content/23-ruger-old-army
..."Ruger proof tested the prototype Old Army by seating a round ball on top of the cylinder full of Bullseye. If such a test were tried using a cartridge case and bullet in almost any revolver results would normally be disastrous. The Old Army held, however it should be fired only with black powder or black powder substitutes and never with smokeless powder."...
Who is John Taffin--->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taffin
I remember reading somewhere that Ruger initially for a very brief period advertised the Old Army as being able to use smokeless powder but quickly stopped that practice.
I think the problem with smokeless in an Old Army would be the nipple design that is a bad choice for smokeless powder. There are so many different types of smokeless powders. Some smokeless powders require a certain amount burn space to properly ignite (burn) easy to set in a cartridge case made to preset dimensions and crimped to securely hold a bullet but not so easy to do by ramming a round ball or conical with a rammer. Heavy recoil can move projectiles that are muzzle loaded in the cylinders chambers. Certain smokeless powders can detonate if packed down hard. Small mistakes in measuring smokeless can cause dangerous increases in pressure.
I am pretty sure the cylinder itself as well as the frame can handle some very high power smokeless load pressures (the Ruger Old Army is built using the old black hawk .357 magnum frame) and the entire gun cylinder included is made from Rugers super strong probably proprietary heat treated cast steel (Ruger cast steel is nowhere close to weak like other cast steels) but the nipples are only held in by threads they will most likely blow straight out the back in the shooters face along with searing hot gasses (not a trivial affair) if a mistake that causes excessive pressures is made. Consider yourself lucky if hot gasses blowing the hammer back is the only problem but still that is too much pressure for a nipple system.
Keep in mind also that igniting smokeless with percussion caps is very unreliable because it needs hotter primers designed for smokeless. This would encourage people to lace it with black powder creating a duplex black powder smokeless load which I would not be too sure is safe. Regardless the cap and ball design does not fare well with smokeless. It's too dicey and risky to me.
Someone did blow up an after market conversion cylinder in a Ruger Old Army by using hot reloads instead of the advertised "cowboy loads." The Old Army frame suffered no damage but the AFTER MARKET CARTRIDGE CYLINDER itself was badly blown apart.
I think the problem with smokeless in an Old Army would be the nipple design that is a bad choice for smokeless powder. There are so many different types of smokeless powders. Some smokeless powders require a certain amount burn space to properly ignite (burn) easy to set in a cartridge case made to preset dimensions and crimped to securely hold a bullet but not so easy to do by ramming a round ball or conical with a rammer. Heavy recoil can move projectiles that are muzzle loaded in the cylinders chambers. Certain smokeless powders can detonate if packed down hard. Small mistakes in measuring smokeless can cause dangerous increases in pressure.
I am pretty sure the cylinder itself as well as the frame can handle some very high power smokeless load pressures (the Ruger Old Army is built using the old black hawk .357 magnum frame) and the entire gun cylinder included is made from Rugers super strong probably proprietary heat treated cast steel (Ruger cast steel is nowhere close to weak like other cast steels) but the nipples are only held in by threads they will most likely blow straight out the back in the shooters face along with searing hot gasses (not a trivial affair) if a mistake that causes excessive pressures is made. Consider yourself lucky if hot gasses blowing the hammer back is the only problem but still that is too much pressure for a nipple system.
Keep in mind also that igniting smokeless with percussion caps is very unreliable because it needs hotter primers designed for smokeless. This would encourage people to lace it with black powder creating a duplex black powder smokeless load which I would not be too sure is safe. Regardless the cap and ball design does not fare well with smokeless. It's too dicey and risky to me.
Someone did blow up an after market conversion cylinder in a Ruger Old Army by using hot reloads instead of the advertised "cowboy loads." The Old Army frame suffered no damage but the AFTER MARKET CARTRIDGE CYLINDER itself was badly blown apart.
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I have no desire to shoot smokeless and wouldn’t recommend it to anyone else. The nipples, as mentioned, are a weak point. Maybe some powders might be safe enough, but I’m happy enough with Olde Eynsford and Triple 7. They provide plenty of power coupled with my 195 grn bullet for what I want from it.
One thing I noted was that the last book mentioned veers from the bullet to use a ball instead. That’s the first I’ve seen of that. It’s always been a 250-255 grn bullet.
Thanks arcticap!
One thing I noted was that the last book mentioned veers from the bullet to use a ball instead. That’s the first I’ve seen of that. It’s always been a 250-255 grn bullet.
Thanks arcticap!
midland man
Member
I've heard that trailboss is weaker than BP but I'll watch someone else try that one!
Here's the recent dumbass using trail boss:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...boss-smokeless-powder-in-c-b-revolver.829628/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...boss-smokeless-powder-in-c-b-revolver.829628/
A. Trailboss came along after Bill passed. B. Trailboss is not a low pressure powder nor is it a bp substitute. C. I shot the prototype ROA at Friendship and was so impressed I had dad order six for our club. Took two years to get. D. I'd like to see the gun they tested. Again, a cylinder full of Bullseye is way more than the 22 grains that a friend used to blow up a Super. (He thought he was loading 2400.). E. About the only way it could have happened is like they said, bored out nipple. It undoubtedly blew the hammer back to half cock. F. The original papers I had said 4fg was fine but that changed a couple years later.
BTW, a former editor of a major gun mag, with a rather checkered history, recently reappeared in a lower tier magazine having a friend try a replica c&b revolver with Trailboss. Didn't work well. Poor ignition, luckily for the "friend".
Unless made specifically for smokeless, black powder or acceptable substitute only.
Unless made specifically for smokeless, black powder or acceptable substitute only.
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