Rogers and Spencer misfire

[Old Stumpy]

You're talking about difficulty cocking a hammer on a C&B revolver... I haven't seen this problem, but then I haven't dealt with a Rogers&Spencer

I don't own a R & S either but I found the mainsprings on my Euroarms and Pietta Remingtons to be stiff enough that I found it really annoying. I have no interest in competition, and I'm not fussy, but I thinned down the springs some anyway.

Incidentally, I ran across a thread somewhere where a shooter says that you can direct substitute a Uberti Cattleman mainspring into a Remington for a suitable medium strength mainspring. I owned a Uberti Cattleman .45 Colt once, and in this revolver at least, the mainspring pressure was just right.

 

[Old Stumpy]

Why not shim the nipples?
A small circle of flattened wire wrapped around the threaded nipple base may provide the extra height needed to provide a more positive cap hit.
After all, if the original mainspring worked with the same unadulterated nipples, then the nipples cones would seem to be okay.
That might be worth a try and doesn't cost anything, even if you only try it with one nipple to see if there's any improvement.

Take a piece of thin wire, wrap it around the base of the nipple to form a circle, then remove it and flatten it with a hammer.
Then place it back on the nipple and tighten the nipple to raise its height by a very small amount.
Cap it and then function test.

Might work. Might be a little bit of a PITA to make those shims though.
If it did work, then the OP could measure the existing nipples and check Track of the Wolf for what's available. They usually supply the length and thread size and the guns that the nipple will fit.
There might be nipples that are a hair longer that will work.

 

[whughett]

Mustanger98, maybe building cap guns for competition shooters with arthritic thumbs might make one think that there are many other reasons why a cap gun won't fire without a hammer draw of 7, 8 or 9 lbs. I've proven many times that a 4 lb. or lighter hammer draw is more than enough to reliably fire a S.A. revolver (several of my guns have won state championships). Hopefully, you won't experience arthritis in your life but many do and they enjoy their shooting just as much as the youngsters! Cycling an 8lb hammer 5 times means that thumb moved 40 lbs. while a 4 lb hammer is just requires 20 lbs. . . . shoot all day and it adds up quickly.
Likewise, it's hard to fan (I mean really "fan" a S.A. with an 8 lb hammer!) or "slip-thumb" (a competition technique using the off-hand thumb to cock the hammer). I know these aren't typical shooting styles for most folks but it's the "proof in the pudding" that it's not just the mainspring that matters! Like I put in my last post, heavy mainsprings are mostly covering up a poor, over sprung action. A finely tuned cap gun S.A. can run head to head with any finely tuned cartridge S.A.
Pretty much all the suggestions mentioned above have merit and a hammer has to crush a cap. The least one I would choose is a heavier mainspring.

Mike

So what’s the explanation for a gun, my Remington Revolving Carbine, for instance, firing all 6 one load, 5 or less on others. A shooting session of 96 shots may result in a 5% or so of failure to fire on first strike, and 100% firing on second strike.

 

[45 Dragoon]

100% on second strike indicates suitable hammer /nipple relationship. Intermittent ignition points to hammer impedance (as long as loading sequence is consistent). More likely than not, it's a stiff bolt arm with ill transition to a too tall cam surface.

Mike

 

[Old Stumpy]

100% on second strike indicates suitable hammer /nipple relationship. Intermittent ignition points to hammer impedance (as long as loading sequence is consistent). More likely than not, it's a stiff bolt arm with ill transition to a too tall cam surface.

Mike

Is it actually hammer "impedance" or is it hammer "resistance"?

I suppose that since it seems to be an "alternating" fire/misfire problem, it must be impedance.

 

[Old Stumpy]

So what’s the explanation for a gun, my Remington Revolving Carbine, for instance, firing all 6 one load, 5 or less on others. A shooting session of 96 shots may result in a 5% or so of failure to fire on first strike, and 100% firing on second strike.

96 shots out of a cap & ball revolver or revolving rifle in one session seems like a long session.

 

[arcticap]

96 shots out of a cap & ball revolver or revolving rifle in one session seems like a long session.

Yes and no.
If a person had 3 different cylinders and was loading them using a loading press, then that's only loading them 5 times each plus one more cylinder full.
Loading cylinders by using a loading press isn't all that time consuming if the powder charges are measured out before hand.

Plus it's less than a full box of balls.
What do you consider to be a long range session?

Using a loading press and pre-measured powder charges as described may only take anywhere from 2 to 3 hours with time to spare.
I'm figuring that it takes about 10 minutes to load 3 cylinders and 10 minutes to shoot them.
That amounts to 54 shots per hour without allowing any breaks or extra time to change targets., which is 9 cylinders per hour, or 3 every 20 minutes.
But a person can put 2 or more targets up at a time.
I'm allowing a little extra time for shooting 18 shots since it may actually require slightly longer to load them, such as to lube the cylinder pin or to clean off powder fouling.
But you get the picture.
If a person uses a loading press, has plenty of pre-measured powder charges and at least 2 extra cylinders, then re-loading can be speeded up considerably.
I'll even load the 1st three cylinders at home before leaving for the range.
I know that you already know that faster reloading is one benefit of shooting the Remington design.

 

[whughett]

Yes and no.
If a person had 3 different cylinders and was loading them using a loading press, then that's only loading them 5 times each plus plus one more cylinder full.
Loading cylinders by using a loading press isn't all that time consuming if the powder charges are measured out before hand.

Plus it's less than a full box of balls.
What do you consider to be a long range session?

Using a loading press and pre-measured powder charges as described may only take anywhere from 2 to 3 hours with time to spare.
I'm figuring that it takes about 10 minutes to load 3 cylinders and 10 minutes to shoot them.
That amounts to 54 shots per hour without allowing any breaks or extra time to change targets., which is 9 cylinders per hour, or 3 every 20 minutes.
But a person can put 2 or more targets up at a time.
I'm allowing a little extra time for shooting 18 shots since it may actually require slightly longer to load them, such as to lube the cylinder pin or to clean off powder fouling.
But you get the picture.
If a person uses a loading press, has plenty of pre-measured powder charges and at least 2 extra cylinders, then re-loading can be speeded up considerably.
I'll even load the 1st three cylinders at home before leaving for the range.
I know that you already know that faster reloading is one benefit of shooting the Remington design.

Yep , that’s what I do, only two cylinders though. Plus I normally put up two or more targets on the frame, and as I’m not shooting competitively I am acquiring the target and firing at a faster rate than some one bullseye shooting. Not pushing the shot mind you, but not holding on target either. This at a private gun club in Rhode Island where more often than not it’s just me and a buddy on the range. In Florida during the winter months at a public range it takes longer as the “Hot” line is 20 minutes in duration and one may wait 10 more on the “safe” condition before firing resumes.

I also carry loose powder and ball for days I want to stay longer.

 

[whughett]

100% on second strike indicates suitable hammer /nipple relationship. Intermittent ignition points to hammer impedance (as long as loading sequence is consistent). More likely than not, it's a stiff bolt arm with ill transition to a too tall cam surface.

Mike

Well I’ll find out if VTI comes thru with the replacement main spring I ordered, over 6 weeks ago. Of all my cap guns with the exception of the 1862 Police the hammer on this carbine is wimpy.

 

[45 Dragoon]

So, if a session lasts 30 mins. or 30 hrs., shouldn't matter. Every time you pull the trigger, it should go bang! It's a purely mechanical thing.

Mike

 

[mustanger98]

Mustanger98, maybe building cap guns for competition shooters with arthritic thumbs might make one think that there are many other reasons why a cap gun won't fire without a hammer draw of 7, 8 or 9 lbs. I've proven many times that a 4 lb. or lighter hammer draw is more than enough to reliably fire a S.A. revolver (several of my guns have won state championships). Hopefully, you won't experience arthritis in your life but many do and they enjoy their shooting just as much as the youngsters! Cycling an 8lb hammer 5 times means that thumb moved 40 lbs. while a 4 lb hammer is just requires 20 lbs. . . . shoot all day and it adds up quickly.
Likewise, it's hard to fan (I mean really "fan" a S.A. with an 8 lb hammer!) or "slip-thumb" (a competition technique using the off-hand thumb to cock the hammer). I know these aren't typical shooting styles for most folks but it's the "proof in the pudding" that it's not just the mainspring that matters! Like I put in my last post, heavy mainsprings are mostly covering up a poor, over sprung action. A finely tuned cap gun S.A. can run head to head with any finely tuned cartridge S.A.
Pretty much all the suggestions mentioned above have merit and a hammer has to crush a cap. The least one I would choose is a heavier mainspring.

Mike

I believe you need to re-read my post. Sure, I mentioned hand strength in passing, but I also said there's a guy on YouTube who explained the cap/cone/hammer/etc relationship. His explanation corroborates a good many observations prior to my comments.

As to the arthritis, I already have experience with it, but it hasn't prevented me from cocking most stock mainsprings. But I'm not advocating stock mainspring as you'd have seen had you actually read my post.

Believe it or not, there are people who hunt with C&B revolvers who tune them for user-friendly reliability in the field.

 

[mustanger98]

Yes and no.
If a person had 3 different cylinders and was loading them using a loading press, then that's only loading them 5 times each plus plus one more cylinder full.
Loading cylinders by using a loading press isn't all that time consuming if the powder charges are measured out before hand.

Plus it's less than a full box of balls.
What do you consider to be a long range session?

Using a loading press and pre-measured powder charges as described may only take anywhere from 2 to 3 hours with time to spare.
I'm figuring that it takes about 10 minutes to load 3 cylinders and 10 minutes to shoot them.
That amounts to 54 shots per hour without allowing any breaks or extra time to change targets., which is 9 cylinders per hour, or 3 every 20 minutes.
But a person can put 2 or more targets up at a time.
I'm allowing a little extra time for shooting 18 shots since it may actually require slightly longer to load them, such as to lube the cylinder pin or to clean off powder fouling.
But you get the picture.
If a person uses a loading press, has plenty of pre-measured powder charges and at least 2 extra cylinders, then re-loading can be speeded up considerably.
I'll even load the 1st three cylinders at home before leaving for the range.
I know that you already know that faster reloading is one benefit of shooting the Remington design.

This sounds like a cowboy action match... IIRC, "Plainsman" class.

 

[mustanger98]

I ran across a thread somewhere where a shooter says that you can direct substitute a Uberti Cattleman mainspring into a Remington for a suitable medium strength mainspring. I owned a Uberti Cattleman .45 Colt once, and in this revolver at least, the mainspring pressure was just right.

Okay, if the Uberti Cattleman mainspring will fit the Remington types, will it fit a Rogers&Spencer.

 

[arcticap]

Okay, if the Uberti Cattleman mainspring will fit the Remington types, will it fit a Rogers&Spencer.

I'm not positive but I don't think so.
I think that I recall reading that folks have a hard time finding spare parts for the Euroarms R &S, especially replacement mainsprings.
And that without a replacement, it makes it more risky to try to alter one.

 

[arcticap]

edit duplicate post

 

[45 Dragoon]

Mustang, I tune a lot of "hunting Walkers".
As far as reading posts, . . . I agree. I pretty much s-p-e-l-l-e-d out what would/could cause ftf besides the mainspring , but you started off pretty much saying that's the problem so . . . maybe it's not!!

Mike

 

[mustanger98]

The R&S main spring is a bear. I would suggest poor nipple fit. The full power spring overcomes it while with the lighter strike of the more pleasant spring, the first strike seats the cap, the second one ignites it.

Three options:

The first is super cheap and easy. You want a small 1/4" dowel about the length of half your index finger. Seat the cap with your fingers or capping tool. Then sort of gently but firmly (not a great explanation) but slowly push the cap down with the wooden dowel to get it fully seated.

The second is replace your nipples with Slix-Shots.

The third is replace the main spring with the original.

Options one and three are pretty cost effective ;-)

If none of those work for you, send it to me and I will rid you of the annoying beast free of charge.

Was the original R&S mainspring this heavy or is this problem just with remakes?

 

[mustanger98]

The most likely culprit (as already eluded to) is poor fit of the caps on the nipples, aka cones.
I've seen this so many times I can't even count them.
The nipples are cone shaped, and as such there is a point on the cone where the OD of the cone is the same as the ID of the cap and the cap doesn't want to go on much farther than that.
Once the cap gets to that point the face of the cap is supposed to be at the tip of the cone and also held on tight to the nipple.
If there is a gap there, the first hammer strike drives the face of the cap down to the nipple but often doesn't ignite the cap.
Subsequent strikes are far more likely to ignite the cap since the cap is now in an improved position.
If this is the problem, which is quite likely, replacing the caps with aftermarket caps and utilizing the size and brand of caps recommended by the nipple manufacture will fix it.
Slix-Shots referred to above are well regarded and a fine choice, but I would fix the nipples you have first before spending the money on a set of new nipples if was me.
I've done the following to several sets of nipples because I enjoy fixing more than spending money and waiting for the Mail Man.
Secure the nipple in a drill chuck and using some emery cloth, turn down the nipple until its the correct size.
It likely wont take much, so check your fit as you go.
If you'd prefer to spend a few bucks than spend a half hour or so working on the revolver, buy some new nipples, and make sure you have the brand and size caps the nipples are designed for.
FYI, every brand of caps are a bit different in length and diameter so only one will be a perfect fit.
Several may work but one will be the best.

I was just remembering hearing that the caps they used in the 1860's were a much lighter, less durable foil than what we get now. Maybe they expanded a lot easier, maybe too easy to work right, to fit the cones we have now. I'm wondering whether the Italian manufacturers are using cones different to what the various American manufacturers were using back then.

 

[Old Stumpy]

What do you consider to be a long range session?

When my hands get really dirty and greasy from lubing over the chambers and wiping off black powder residue, and my towel is too far gone to keep up, and my spray bottle runs empty, and I start to stink of rotten eggs. By then I am well-satisfied.

For me, about 42 rounds, or 6 cylinder-fulls. I only take one BP revolver out at a time, because I don't want to do a lot of disassembly and cleaning at the end of the day.

Then I switch to my smokeless guns. All tolled, I'm done in about 4 hours.

As Abe Lincoln said: "Short and sweet like the old woman's dance."

 

[sandy4570]

Thanks everyone for great advice. I went ahead and ordered steel harden nipples from T.O.W and keep original as spare. I tried to order another hammer spring from Dixie Guns work but they don’t list that part anymore. I went to the range this morning and fired 44 rounds . The CCI caps still misfire and #10 cap won’t fit the new nipples . The Remington #11 cap works most the time( several misfire) . I used wooden dowel to seat the cap as far as it will go in. I have a few tins of Remington caps left and if I can’t get more I will switch the original main spring back on.