S&W M&P .38 Spl

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Mr. Mosin

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Buddy has a M&P .38, serial number places manufacture anywhere from '46 to '52. 4.75" or 5" barrel, pinned and tapered. Nickel finish, magna walnut target grips. Square butt. Cylinder locks up like a bank vault on two chambers, with a bit of play in three more, and very, very noticeable play in one. No end shake, ejector rod isntbent or damaged as I can tell. Cylinder occasionally doesn't like to close, catches on... something I've yet to determine. I think the forcing cone. It feels good, points good, handles good. Decent gun, but not worth 1k dollars. What's a good offer to make him ?
 
.38 Special or S&W? M&Ps are pretty common, which is fortunate considering yours likely needs a ratchet and/or hand and parts are still around.

Around here, one of those in average condition, .38spl, 5", nickel would likely have $350 on the sticker at a LGS or show. Subtract $100 for the severe timing problem. Subtract another $50 if in .38 S&W.....

Subtract $200 if it has a cracked forcing cone.

I recently paid $150 for one of those in .32-20 which was mechanically perfect, but needed a full external refinish. I think we both felt good with the deal.
 
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.38 Special or S&W? M&Ps are pretty common, which is fortunate considering yours likely needs a ratchet and/or hand and parts are still around.

Around here, one of those in average condition, .38spl, 5", nickel would likely have $350 on the sticker at a LGS or show. Subtract $100 for the severe timing problem. Subtract another $50 if in .38 S&W.....

Subtract $200 if it has a cracked forcing cone.

I recently paid $150 for one of those in .32-20 which was mechanically perfect, but needed a full external refinish. I think we both felt good with the deal.

.38 Special. Forcing cone is fine, far as I can tell, or I wouldn't be considering trying to buy it. I've shot it. Tack driver at 25 yards.
 
.38 Special. Forcing cone is fine, far as I can tell, or I wouldn't be considering trying to buy it. I've shot it. Tack driver at 25 yards.
Mine is also very accurate.:D

You might call S&W and see what they would charge to go over it for you.

Or, if you are looking for a DIY challenge, there are many good videos online about diagnosing and repairing k-frame S&Ws. Good luck!
 
Mine is also very accurate.:D

You might call S&W and see what they would charge to go over it for you.

Or, if you are looking for a DIY challenge, there are many good videos online about diagnosing and repairing k-frame S&Ws. Good luck!

I have a local gunsmith, does good work for fair prices. Is the ratchet particularly hard to replace ?
 
@NIGHTLORD40K if memory serves me (I do t have the gun on hand) the cylinder stops were relatively crisp and clean (by cylinder stop, I'm referring to the cutouts in the outside cylinder wall that the bolt fits into and locks the cylinder in place). They all had slight wear on the little slopes where the bolt begins to rise before it locks in the stops. I attributed it to a rough life, but the gun might not be worth my hassle.
 
The good news is you've had the chance to test drive it.
Now, what exactly do you mean by a bit of play and very noticeable? I think maybe 1 percent of revolvers actually display NO slop when locked up and from my experience those are usually Colt revolvers. If you mean a tiny bit of movement that's probably normal although I can't say an exact measurement that would be out of spec.
Since you have shot it and you did say it's a tack driver my guess is it doesn't have any timing issues. Especially if it's still accurate at 25 yards.
I would probably offer $300.00 but be willing to counter his counter offer.
It would be a great starter revolver for you.
I say go for it.
 
Subtract $200 if it has a cracked forcing cone.

Howdy

Cracked forcing cones were not a problem on the K frame 38s. They were made for over 100 years that way. Forcing cones did not start cracking on K frame revolvers until the 357 Combat Magnum came along. High velocity 357 Magnum bullets hitting the forcing cone could cause it to crack.

First, make sure the cylinder is not rubbing against the rear of the barrel. If it is out of square, the cylinder could be dragging on a few chambers, preventing the cylinder from rotating properly.

I have a test I do whenever checking out an old revolver of any make. WITH THE GUN UNLOADED, putting a little bit of drag on the cylinder with your thumb, cock the hammer very slowly for each chamber until the hammer goes to full cock. Now, with the hammer at full cock, see if the cylinder is locked up properly. If you can rotate the cylinder a teeny bit to get the bolt to pop into the locking slots on the cylinder after full cock, the cylinder is out of time. Try this a couple of times for each chamber. Mark the chambers that do not time properly. I have found it is not uncommon with older double action revolvers for them to be a little bit out of time. Often times with this test the hammer cocks before the cylinder locks up properly. Now, repeat the test, but this time do not put any drag on the cylinder and cock the hammer vigorously. What happens? Does the cylinder lock up properly at every chamber? Often times, the momentum of the cylinder rotating will keep it rotating for a split second after the hammer goes to full cock and the cylinder will lock up properly for every chamber. I have lots of old revolvers that are a little bit out of time and the cylinder does not lock up properly at slow speed, but it locks up fine when the hammer is cocked vigorously.

Also, try this test with double action. WITH THE GUN STILL UNLOADED, pull the trigger slowly, put put some thumb pressure on the hammer to keep it from falling. Try this test extra slow, and quickly. What happens?

I have lots of old S&W revolvers. If they are not badly out of time I go ahead and buy them, particularly if it is a nice old Smith that I want to have. I just remember to cock the hammer vigorously when ever shooting.

At the range, you can try this test with ammo in the cylinder, pointing it in a safe direction of course. The extra weight of bullets in the chamber often helps keep the momentum of the rotating cylinder, slightly overcoming the bad timing.

Bottom line, if I can get the cylinder to lock up properly every time with a brisk cocking action, or brisk trigger pull, I buy the gun. If not, I won't touch it.

If the cylinder locks up differently for different chambers, that probably means uneven wear on the ratchet teeth. if the cylinder does not lock up properly on all chambers, that may mean the hand is worn.


Is the ratchet particularly hard to replace ?

Buy this book:

http://www.gunbooks.com/sw.html

You can also buy it on Amazon. Absolutely the best book on the market about S&W double action revolvers. An entire trouble shooting guide in the back. The hardest part about replacing the ratchet is unscrewing it. Most of the time it is snugged up so tight you may damage it trying to unscrew it. The ratchet is brazed onto the ratchet rod. Too much pressure and you can damage it. One trick is to place three empty cartridge cases in three chambers, leaving empty chambers between the cases. This way the ratchet teeth will be supported as you try to unscrew the extractor rod. SPECIAL NOTE: Older smiths had right hand threads for the extractor rod to ratchet assembly. Later, this was changed to left hand threads. YOU MUST KNOW WHICH TYPE OF THREAD IS THERE OR YOU WILL BE OVER TIGHTENING THE ROD INSTEAD OF UNSCREWING IT. Extractor threads were changed from right hand to left hand sometime around 1960 -1962.
 
@Mr. Mosin ,

If memory serves, you've recently been asking about .38 and .357 vs .45 Colt, and have mentioned lacking funds for the guns you want. Looking at a number of options, but considering used .38 spl S&Ws for a first revolver.

Now, I don't mean to be condescending or rude in anyway, but I think perhaps you should pass this one by.

The gun obviously has some collectibility, and I would assume your friend would like to get paid for that. While on the other hand, you want a function firearm at a bargain price. I don't think this gun is worth upsetting a friendship over. I know it's right there and you may want it, but given your previous posts, I'd say put your money into functionality rather than history.

$349 plus shipping etc will get you a used model 64 from aimsurplus.com, won't it? A stainless .38 that has probably seen a holster much more than it has been shot. And is probably more suited to your needs.
 
@all that's why I'm growing to love this forum. Sound advice. If he was to *give* it to me (unlikely) or only ask $150 or $200 (also unlikely) I may go for it, but all he sees is "S&W" stamped on the side, and he thinks it's immaculate. Albeit, the finish is good, and it handles well, but I'm glad I've some sense and a bit of knowledge. That one "large play" chamber, the cylinder spins... eh, probably a sixteenth of a turn, in either direction. And... "full lockup" is cocking the hammer back, then easing it down & keeping the trigger pulled, isn't it ?
 
If it is kinda wobbly, $300 might be too much. I got one maybe four years ago for a $140-something bid. It has very little finish and is a little wobbly, but it shoots just fine.

That was a pretty good price for one that's still functional, but I'm just trying to dispel the notion that it's some kind of collector's item. Smith made a whole lot of those, and there are a whole lot still out there.

I got a similar Hand Ejector in 32 S&W long that has ugly finish but works just fine for a $120-something bid.

The similar vintage Colt looks better, but still has some obvious finish problems. It's the best shooter of the three. I just wanted to have a Colt revolver. I won it for a bid of around $350. I had to wait a while to get one that cheap, but Colts are pricier than Smiths.

This is all just to give the OP an idea about what an ordinary guy paid for old revolvers that work okay.

 
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@ WrongHanded that's it. It's "right there". If it was in a pawn shop, it would have been an impulse buy, and I'd have just paid a smith to fix it. I want it mainly because of it being a pre-Mdl 10 M&P .38, but I do think that a good .38 would handle the majority of my actual *needs* right now. On an off note, can these old M&P .38's handle today's +P stuff ? I've done some research myself, and drawn a conclusion, but I want to opinion and advice of others more knowledgeable than me.
 
If it is kinda wobbly, $300 might be too much. I got one maybe four years ago for a $140-something bid. It has very little finish and is a little wobbly, but it shoots just fine.

That was a pretty good price for one that's still functional, but I'm just trying to dispel the notion that it's some kind of collector's item. Smith made a whole lot of those, and there are a whole lot still out there.

Somewhere in the magnitude of several million, did they not ? And I've actually seen one or two in a few pawn shops, but these people seem to think that anything "S&W" shouldn't fetch under $350, no matter the condition. I'm not even trying to haggle for a $300 gun that's marked $600. I would consider a 442, but I want something I can actually learn to shoot w/o dreading the experience. Buddies M&P, w/ 158 grn LRN, recoil is about like a .22LR, and it's easy to handle. I figure any other M&P .38 would be the same.
 
Somewhere in the magnitude of several million, did they not ? And I've actually seen one or two in a few pawn shops, but these people seem to think that anything "S&W" shouldn't fetch under $350, no matter the condition. I'm not even trying to haggle for a $300 gun that's marked $600. I would consider a 442, but I want something I can actually learn to shoot w/o dreading the experience. Buddies M&P, w/ 158 grn LRN, recoil is about like a .22LR, and it's easy to handle. I figure any other M&P .38 would be the same.
Smith revolvers should achieve full lockup just before the hammer is fully cocked. There should not be much, if any, difference when the trigger is pulled and held.

Colts go into full lock when the trigeer is pulled. You want to check a Colt with the trigger held.
 
Howdy

Cracked forcing cones were not a problem on the K frame 38s. They were made for over 100 years that way. Forcing cones did not start cracking on K frame revolvers until the 357 Combat Magnum came along. High velocity 357 Magnum bullets hitting the forcing cone could cause it to crack.

First, make sure the cylinder is not rubbing against the rear of the barrel. If it is out of square, the cylinder could be dragging on a few chambers, preventing the cylinder from rotating properly.

I have a test I do whenever checking out an old revolver of any make. WITH THE GUN UNLOADED, putting a little bit of drag on the cylinder with your thumb, cock the hammer very slowly for each chamber until the hammer goes to full cock. Now, with the hammer at full cock, see if the cylinder is locked up properly. If you can rotate the cylinder a teeny bit to get the bolt to pop into the locking slots on the cylinder after full cock, the cylinder is out of time. Try this a couple of times for each chamber. Mark the chambers that do not time properly. I have found it is not uncommon with older double action revolvers for them to be a little bit out of time. Often times with this test the hammer cocks before the cylinder locks up properly. Now, repeat the test, but this time do not put any drag on the cylinder and cock the hammer vigorously. What happens? Does the cylinder lock up properly at every chamber? Often times, the momentum of the cylinder rotating will keep it rotating for a split second after the hammer goes to full cock and the cylinder will lock up properly for every chamber. I have lots of old revolvers that are a little bit out of time and the cylinder does not lock up properly at slow speed, but it locks up fine when the hammer is cocked vigorously.

Also, try this test with double action. WITH THE GUN STILL UNLOADED, pull the trigger slowly, put put some thumb pressure on the hammer to keep it from falling. Try this test extra slow, and quickly. What happens?

I have lots of old S&W revolvers. If they are not badly out of time I go ahead and buy them, particularly if it is a nice old Smith that I want to have. I just remember to cock the hammer vigorously when ever shooting.

At the range, you can try this test with ammo in the cylinder, pointing it in a safe direction of course. The extra weight of bullets in the chamber often helps keep the momentum of the rotating cylinder, slightly overcoming the bad timing.

Bottom line, if I can get the cylinder to lock up properly every time with a brisk cocking action, or brisk trigger pull, I buy the gun. If not, I won't touch it.

If the cylinder locks up differently for different chambers, that probably means uneven wear on the ratchet teeth. if the cylinder does not lock up properly on all chambers, that may mean the hand is worn.




Buy this book:

http://www.gunbooks.com/sw.html

You can also buy it on Amazon. Absolutely the best book on the market about S&W double action revolvers. An entire trouble shooting guide in the back. The hardest part about replacing the ratchet is unscrewing it. Most of the time it is snugged up so tight you may damage it trying to unscrew it. The ratchet is brazed onto the ratchet rod. Too much pressure and you can damage it. One trick is to place three empty cartridge cases in three chambers, leaving empty chambers between the cases. This way the ratchet teeth will be supported as you try to unscrew the extractor rod. SPECIAL NOTE: Older smiths had right hand threads for the extractor rod to ratchet assembly. Later, this was changed to left hand threads. YOU MUST KNOW WHICH TYPE OF THREAD IS THERE OR YOU WILL BE OVER TIGHTENING THE ROD INSTEAD OF UNSCREWING IT. Extractor threads were changed from right hand to left hand sometime around 1960 -1962.
We actually have a thread going right now about an M15 with a cracked cone-
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/forcing-cone-crack-fixable.859515/#post-11304264

Granted, the problem is very rare with .38s, but any K-frame should probably be inspected for this problem before buying- especially M19s.
 
True there are ALOT of K frame 38s out there. A model 10 or even a 64 would serve you very well and either can be found below $350.00 pretty easily. My 64-8 (my only S&W with a lock hole) is stamped +P and is one of my favorite shooters. My model 10 is pretty sweet too but I don't prefer the Magna grips. When I get around to ordering a T grip adapter for that one I can see it also becoming a favorite.
 
Me? I call that and those like them: "project guns" and as such, I'd be thinking a bit over $100. And, even less potentially once I were to inspect it in hand.... Could descend to "parts gun" prices. I've bought POS S&Ws just to get a hammer, grips or the like.

In any case, unless I'm missing something.... No where anywhere near $1,000 and in fact, that number seems so high that I personally wouldn't enter into negotiations since half the price is more than twice, too much.


Todd.
 
If
Me? I call that and those like them: "project guns" and as such, I'd be thinking a bit over $100. And, even less potentially once I were to inspect it in hand.... Could descend to "parts gun" prices. I've bought POS S&Ws just to get a hammer, grips or the like.

In any case, unless I'm missing something.... No where anywhere near $1,000 and in fact, that number seems so high that I personally wouldn't enter into negotiations since half the price is more than twice, too much.


Todd.
Even mint, unfired in box with factory letter I doubt you could find a knowledgeable buyer at $1000 for that. On the other hand, many sellers are betting on finding an ignorant noob to plunk down on it. One is born every second, I suppose.
 
I would try Smith & Wesson. I recently had a K frame that I had bought as a Dept of Corrections trade in. I fired thousands of rounds through it and then it got to where it would not fire about 20% of the time that you pulled the trigger. I messed with it and messed with it trying to fix it. Finally, I sent it off to S&W. They told me that they could fix it for $150. I don't know exactly what they did, but I know that it came back with a new cylinder, hammer, and trigger. Worth every penny that was spent!
 
@all, I believe I may have given a wrong impression. My buddy isn't asking $1k for the gun. He would ask somewhere around $500. Which, according to y'all; is too much. Buddy says he looked into the gun, and says that it was issued to some PD for several decades, then put in storage and sold as surplus. He's had it for several years. Took it in trade for a parts ATV. I've got sense enough not to give him $500 for a $200 gun that's needing $200 worth of work to it. Push comes to shove, I'll buy a Zastava M70, if any of the surplus places still have one by the time I scrape up $200.
 
@all, I believe I may have given a wrong impression. My buddy isn't asking $1k for the gun. He would ask somewhere around $500. Which, according to y'all; is too much. Buddy says he looked into the gun, and says that it was issued to some PD for several decades, then put in storage and sold as surplus. He's had it for several years. Took it in trade for a parts ATV. I've got sense enough not to give him $500 for a $200 gun that's needing $200 worth of work to it. Push comes to shove, I'll buy a Zastava M70, if any of the surplus places still have one by the time I scrape up $200.
How about one of those Surplus Beretta M81s for $250? I think a couple places still have em. I would snap one up, but I bought the .380 version just before I heard about the cheap .32s.......
 
@all, I believe I may have given a wrong impression. My buddy isn't asking $1k for the gun. He would ask somewhere around $500. Which, according to y'all; is too much. Buddy says he looked into the gun, and says that it was issued to some PD for several decades, then put in storage and sold as surplus. He's had it for several years. Took it in trade for a parts ATV. I've got sense enough not to give him $500 for a $200 gun that's needing $200 worth of work to it. Push comes to shove, I'll buy a Zastava M70, if any of the surplus places still have one by the time I scrape up $200.
Good deal then, You're all over it.

Sounds like you'd maybe be doing him a favor taking it off his hands.
I backed into a cute little shooter when a friend thought he had a non-gun created from a real one.
Its was locked-up enough to behave as though the internals had been welded or at least JB Welded. I gave him a pittance for it just to get the grips and quite a while later I got to looking at the grips and realized the gun had been reassembled incorrectly and once I straightened that out, it was shipping-day perfect and smooth.
Who knew?

Todd.
IMG_0815.JPG
 
I backed into a cute little shooter when a friend thought he had a non-gun created from a real one.
Its was locked-up enough to behave as though the internals had been welded or at least JB Welded. I gave him a pittance for it just to get the grips and quite a while later I got to looking at the grips and realized the gun had been reassembled incorrectly and once I straightened that out, it was shipping-day perfect and smooth.
Who knew?


That is a 38 M&P first Model, also known as the Model of 1899. Only produced from 1899 until 1902. Easily identified by the lack of a barrel underlug to secure the front end of the ejector rod. In 1902 the underlug for the ejector rod was added. The internals of both the Model 1899 and Model 1902 are significantly different than the internals of the Model 1905. The internals of the Model 1905 are pretty much the same as current production.

This Model 1899 shipped in 1899.

Model%201899%20Nickel%2003_zpsfqm7uk8u.jpg




Note: The very early S&W Hand Ejectors had no internal hammer block. Later ones had an internal hammer block but it was significantly different than the modern hammer block, which was introduced in 1944. Not really as unsafe to carry a pre-modern hammer block Hand Ejector fully loaded with six rounds as it is to carry a Single Action Colt fully loaded with six rounds. Thousands of cops did it for years. But some will not carry a pre-1944 Hand Ejector fully loaded.

Regarding Plus P ammo in an old S&W, why in the world do you want to do that?

Although S&W has been heat treating their cylinders since the 1920s, standard advice is the post-1957 guns, the ones with Model Numbers instead of names, are all safe to shoot with Plus P ammo. Personally, I never shoot anything but standard 38 Special loads in my old Smiths.
 
That is a 38 M&P first Model, also known as the Model of 1899. Only produced from 1899 until 1902. Easily identified by the lack of a barrel underlug to secure the front end of the ejector rod. In 1902 the underlug for the ejector rod was added. The internals of both the Model 1899 and Model 1902 are significantly different than the internals of the Model 1905. The internals of the Model 1905 are pretty much the same as current production.

Note: The very early S&W Hand Ejectors had no internal hammer block. Later ones had an internal hammer block but it was significantly different than the modern hammer block, which was introduced in 1944. Not really as unsafe to carry a pre-modern hammer block Hand Ejector fully loaded with six rounds as it is to carry a Single Action Colt fully loaded with six rounds. Thousands of cops did it for years. But some will not carry a pre-1944 Hand Ejector fully loaded.

Regarding Plus P ammo in an old S&W, why in the world do you want to do that?
I sure wish mine still had the original barrel though, I did find a correct take-off I may pop for.

Thanks for sharing the information.

Todd.
 
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