S&W pre-10, post war with action by King?

[jad0110]

Saw an interesting gun for sale today. It is a 6" S&W Hand Ejector in .38 Special, in about 70% condition finish wise on the original bluing. Has the original diamond magna wood stocks. Judging by the ejector rod, this is a post war pre-model 10 made sometime after Oct 1946.

My question about this gun concerns it's action. It has a King hammer, and the action has been tuned by King. What can you all tell me about King actions? Are they based on the S&W long or short action (or both)? I've heard the name "King" in connection with S&W, and perhaps Colt revolvers as well, but it was only in passing. I'm pretty much clueless here.

Looking at the hammer in the photo below, the King hammer does appear similar to a long action hammer, but I just wanted everyone else's opinions. I know S&W switched from the long to short action design sometime in 1947.

I'm going to try to get a S/N so that I can nail down a DOB.

Anybody have a rough guess on what a gun like this might be worth, assuming solid mechanical condition?

 

[Oro]

in about 70% condition finish wise on the original bluing.

The first thing that strikes me is if the rest of the gun is representative of the photo, it's in about 85% condition or possibly better. This is a point most people underestimate for some reason.

The second observation is that the gun has been retrofitted with a modified short-action hammer, so I doubt it's based on a long action model. If so, the action has been altered. The high-shouldered magnas look excellent, though. Unfortunately, not many people appreciate the difference.

The King's modification is not really a negative, but I don't view it as a huge positive. The gun has been altered, and the splotchy finish is a shame. The 6" tube out the front also isn't a plus to most folks. I'd hazard that to someone who can appreciate it for what it is and overlook the modifications and poor storage evidence, it might fetch $225/250? I'm a fan of these, but for a little bit more money I could have a pristine long-action 4" or 5" instead of a modified and mottled 6".

 

[madcratebuilder]

^^^^

I agree with Oro. If your wanting a shooter and the price is right I'd buy it. There are better examples out their. Personally I like the 6 and 8 3/8 guns for punching paper.


This was a $300 purchase two months ago.


Pre war long action


You should be able to fins a shooter like this for around $200/250.

 

[XavierBreath]

I was thinking about the same thing as Qro. Around here I would place the price between $250 and 300. The King action is likely very nice, but not so distinctive that it would interest me and motivate me to bring home the gun on account of it. On the contrary, I see a desirable long action revolver with the action swapped out. Kind of like finding a Hemi 'cuda and opening the hood to discover a slant six. Well, not that bad, but definitely not a plus.

On the other hand, Kings Gun Work is one of the long time established pistolsmith emporiums. They have an excellent reputation. Somehow though, I suspect this modification was done to "update" a long action revolver to a short throw action.

The finish would not cause me to not buy, although others might. I like a long barreled target gun at the range. I own a few snubbies. I'm not going to try to stick this one in a pocket. So, the long barrel is not a detriment to me.

Bottom line, this is not a collector's gun. It's a shooter. It has some interesting but not distinctive gunsmithing in it's history. I wonder if it has a brass Call bead, and whether it was used in PPC competition. I might purchase it in a ftf haggle situation, but I would not expect the modifications to add to it's value. If you like the gun, buy it. But don't pay extra for the Kings stuff.

OK, I'll post a past sweet deal too.......... Model 17-3. $199.

 

[jad0110]

Thank you for the information guys. I really do appreciate your insights.

The gun is priced at $295, so it appears to be a fair price. But, I think I'll hold off for a pre-war long action, which is really what I'm looking for. I'll be going to the Greensboro NC gunshow in February. I've heard it's better than Raleigh or Charlotte; we'll see.

The first thing that strikes me is if the rest of the gun is representative of the photo, it's in about 85% condition or possibly better. This is a point most people underestimate for some reason.

Overall, the gun would rate as 85% or so, but there is some significant patina and some surface rust on the left side of the barrel, right around the "Smith & Wesson" marking.

BTW, those are some really nice guns everyone. Thank you for posting pictures; gives me some inspiration!

 

[Old Fuff]

Well the Old Fuff is late to the party again, and as usual his opinion is going to be a bit divergent from some of the others. But being over-the-hill and cranky is supposed to be a privilege awarded to the elderly, so I’m going to make the most of it.

Deane W. King founded the King Gunsight Company in or about 1913 and located at first in Denver, Co. The firm’s specialty was high-grade iron sights for rifles and handguns. During the early 1930’s he moved to San Francisco, and there he stayed until the company closed down in 1955. There is presently another King Gunsight Co. in California, and while they do excellent work they shouldn’t be confused with the one we are discussing.

Besides marketing his line of sights, (he sub-contraced much of the work) Mr. King became renown for custom work on handguns of that day, and his work was considered so highly that both Colt and Smith & Wesson would buy sights from him and install them as a factory option. They would also sell him handpicked pistols and revolvers, which he would customize and then sell, or of course he would take in guns belonging to his customers and modify them as to whatever way they ordered.

One of his more popular products was a complete rework of Colt or Smith & Wesson internals to achieve a shorter cocking stroke. There were prized by many top bullseye target shooters who habitually thumb-cocked their revolvers. Then to further increase the hammer’s function he would weld up the spur and increase the width of that part where a shooter would place the ball of his thumb.

The “King Short Action” became so popular that following World War Two, S&W largely copied it (including the wide spur hammer) and made it standard in most of they’re target grade K and N-frame revolvers.

So now we come to the neglected revolver which is the object of this thread. The Old Fuff’s keen (but bloodshot) eyes quickly noticed that it was one of the much desired, but seldom seen post-war “transitional” pre-model 10’s that had the prewar “long action,” but the later hammer block that was introduced in 1945 and thereafter made it safe to carry a S&W with the cylinder fully loaded. These also were made before numerous large and small changes were made during future years to lower manufacturing costs.

Incidentally, just because I talked up the King Short Action doesn’t necessarily mean this revolver is so equipped. Other then the wide spur hammer the rest of the insides might have been left as they were, and in any case if King worked it over it ought to work as smooth as goose grease…

But then it has a six-inch barrel! How awful!! “How completely un-tactical,” someone will mutter… “Not a single piece of plastic anywhere,” someone else will point out. “Hopelessly obsolete.” Another will opine…

Maybe, but a competent marksman can take it and absolutely humiliate the tactical ones with a rattle-banger who think grapefruit sized patterns fired at 10 yards is respectable combat accuracy. And nowhere is it written that this jewel-in-the-rough couldn’t have a shorter barrel installed (if that floats your boat) and be dropped into a blue tank.

Why go to the trouble? Well because in many ways and for numerous reasons they don’t make them this way anymore, and to find a post-war transitional .38 M&P is pure luck at its best, and with a King action it’s pure luck with an oak leaf cluster.

 

[Stophel]

I would have already bought it, and laughed all the way home.

 

[Jim Watson]

Cops used to walk their beats and a six inch barrel did not much get in the way.
Cops used to do a lot of their qualification shooting in slowfire with single action allowed.

I suspect a police connection on a fixed sight .38 with target hammer.

I think it is a desirable gun, much more interesting than the rock stock factory configuration the collectors rave over. They are just buying 1911s and M&Ps because they cannot afford the prices the previous generation of speculators drove 19th century guns to. About ruined the army surplus .45 market in the process, too.

 

[redmule]

I believe Old Fuff has nailed it. Definitely not a short action conversion. Just an action job with a wide spur hammer. The 6 inch barrel makes for a nice field gun. Easier to shoot and higher velocity.

 

[Guillermo]

I have no clue as to what is going on with this revolver but it is a fool's errand to contridict Old Fuff...except for ONE subject

 

[Oro]

I have no clue as to what is going on with this revolver but it is a fool's errand to contridict Old Fuff...except for ONE subject

Well, no one is contradicting anyone. The question from the OP was basically value. And the sad sate of affairs is that money spent to trick-up a gun is usually always lost - the shooter should enjoy the modifications because it's not something that will usually bring a premium. Even though this gun is a solid piece from King's, it's still going to trade based on the existing finish flaws.

There are not that many of us who really love these transtion era guns and older M&Ps, which is a shame, they are just wonderful guns.

Cops used to walk their beats and a six inch barrel did not much get in the way.

And no one here has denigrated the virtues of 6" guns - only that the market prices them a little less. My personal favorite M&P is the 5". But the OP asked about dollar value - and that's a hard fact one can judge in the marketplace. Quality and virtues are a different discussion, and one we don't engage in often enough. If we did, a lot of guns' "values" would change quite a bit!