Safety and no shooting areas

[Steve762us]

Sneak over on a new moon and shallowly-bury several large jugs of
tannerite in the backstop...

 

[hossfly]

To start with, I would like you or anyone else who is interested to get on Google Earth and look up Springersville, IN. The part being discussed is the northeast corner with the Springersville, Road on the south and CR 450E on the west. My shop is the larger building out by itself with a red roof near a smaller building with the same color roof (utility shed) slightly to the south and east of the shop. The rental house, partially obscured by trees, is the third house east of the intersection on the north side of Springersville Road.
This isn’t about noise.
They are shooting from a point less than fifty feet from the road at a backstop about twenty feet from the property line. If they were the neighbor to the north, well over 100 yards away, and shooting east where a missed backstop wouldn’t be any big thing because there are no houses for miles let alone close by and in sight.

I looked you up and you're right. They should not be shooting there.

On the subject of your own safety, do you think their log backstop is actually stopping the bullets? And where on the satellite photo is it located?

 

[LiveLife]

The renters have built a log backstop of maybe eight feet wide by six feet tall that is positioned so my shop is almost directly down range, and in the summertime when I’m mowing there have been occasions when I was directly downrange when they decided to start shooting.

I believe your first course of action is to talk to the renters and express your concern.

Has this been done?

 

[Flintshooter]

I looked you up and you're right. They should not be shooting there.

On the subject of your own safety, do you think their log backstop is actually stopping the bullets? And where on the satellite photo is it located?

The log backstop is probably adequate as long as nothing, like an accidental discharge, happens and they miss the backstop.
If you look closely, north and a little east of the third house there is a tree that is a brighter shade of green than the others. A little south and east of that tree is a circular area that is lighter than the area around it. That is the approximate area of the back stop.
In spite of a previous post implying that I’m anti-gun and trying to shut down shooting ranges, all I am concerned with is getting shot by an accidental shot fired by someone who doesn’t know enough about gun safety, or doesn’t care enough, to fire when the potential of something bad happening exists.

 

[hossfly]

The log backstop is probably adequate as long as nothing, like an accidental discharge, happens and they miss the backstop.
If you look closely, north and a little east of the third house there is a tree that is a brighter shade of green than the others. A little south and east of that tree is a circular area that is lighter than the area around it. That is the approximate area of the back stop.
In spite of a previous post implying that I’m anti-gun and trying to shut down shooting ranges, all I am concerned with is getting shot by an accidental shot fired by someone who doesn’t know enough about gun safety, or doesn’t care enough, to fire when the potential of something bad happening exists.

Oh I get it. A picture's worth a thousand words and I didn't understand how much it resembles a subdivision simply based on the first post.

 

[LiveLife]

The renters have built a log backstop of maybe eight feet wide by six feet tall that is positioned so my shop is almost directly down range

when I’m mowing there have been occasions when I was directly downrange when they decided to start shooting.

Again, have you talked to the renters?

 

[Flintshooter]

Again, have you talked to the renters?

If you read all the posts you will know that I haven’t and why. But to save you some trouble. The owners of every house surrounding the renters have asked them not to and they have all been told they can get stuffed. There is no point in me adding my voice to the ignored.

 

[LiveLife]

The owners of every house surrounding the renters have asked them not to and they have all been told they can get stuffed. There is no point in me adding my voice to the ignored.

First of all, I am not a lawyer but spent decades as state government worker federally licensed to investigate and enforce applicable city/county/state/federal ordinances, regulations and laws of health care facilities which resulted in many directors and managers being terminated when found in violation of them that led to negative outcome/harm. (Our district office actually sent some to state prison and they are still serving time)

I am actually on your side and agree that being down range while the renters are shooting is concerning and potentially dangerous.

But if you are planning to take any action, especially after local LE told all the neighbors the renters are not violating county ordinances, you must first establish why you have a safety concern of being directly down range when the renters were shooting.

And that requires you directly notifying/informing the renters. If I was the person conducting the investigation, my first question to the renters would be, "Did anyone notify you that they were concerned?"

If no, my question to the neighbor would be, "Why did you not inform/notify the renters?"

And if yes, my question would be, "What were the expressed concerns?" (I would expect noise/disturbance, safety concerns, etc. as most cities/counties have community disturbance ordinances, particularly if they disrupt normal hours of sleep, etc.)

Then I would collect facts/evidence of concerns to see if any applicable county ordinances were violated (Quiet hours, requirement for sufficient backstop if such exists, etc.).

But as local LE already told the neighbors, apparently there was no violation of applicable ordinances.

Now, if I was the renter and my neighbors reasonably approached me in a friendly manner, I would have discussed shooting option solutions that would make my neighbors less concerned and happier. Perhaps one such solution would be a "safer" neighborhood designated shooting area in a different location. Of course that would require some planning and work but could be a better option than a bunch of pissed off neighbors against renters who are exercising their 2A rights without violating any county ordinance.

The owners of every house surrounding the renters have asked them not to and they have all been told they can get stuffed.

Just because every neighbor demanded that you drive electric only vehicle does not make it right if you don't want to and if there is no mandate for you to do so.

Who knows, may be the renters already checked with local LE/county to see if there were any restrictions before they built the backstop.

Who knows, put yourself in the renters position and a bunch of angry neighbors told you, "Are you crazy? You can't shoot there!" So you check with local LE and county ordinances and they say you can. Well, would you then tell the angry neighbors to get stuffed too?

Of course, my opinions only.

 

[jmorris]

If you read all the posts you will know that I haven’t and why. But to save you some trouble. The owners of every house surrounding the renters have asked them not to and they have all been told they can get stuffed. There is no point in me adding my voice to the ignored.

Maybe you could be the voice of reason. If you are the guy down range from their makeshift berm, the others can’t be. I understand throwing up your hands and giving up too; however, if it really bothers you, you might seek a more favorable solution for yourself than “deal with it”.

Legal is legal and if it’s legal for them now, the only thing you can do is work with them or change the law.

 

[Flintshooter]

First of all, I am not a lawyer but spent decades as state government worker federally licensed to investigate and enforce applicable city/county/state/federal ordinances, regulations and laws of health care facilities which resulted in directors and managers being terminated when found in violation of them. (Our district office actually sent some to state prison and they are still serving time)

I am actually on your side and agree that being down range while the renters are shooting is concerning and potentially dangerous.

But if you are planning to take any action, especially after local LE told all the neighbors the renters are not violating county ordinances, you must first establish why you have a safety concern of being directly down range when the renters were shooting.

And that requires you directly notifying/informing the renters. If I was the person conducting the investigation, my first question to the renters would be, "Did anyone notify you that they were concerned?"

If no, my question to the neighbor would be, "Why did you not inform/notify the renters?"

And if yes, my question would be, "What were the expressed concerns?" (I would expect noise/disturbance, safety concerns, etc. as most cities/counties have community disturbance ordinances, particularly if they disrupt normal hours of sleep, etc.)

Then I would collect facts/evidence of concerns to see if any applicable county ordinances were violated (Quiet hours, requirement for sufficient backstop if such exists, etc.).

But as local LE already told the neighbors, apparently there was no violation of applicable ordinances.

Having said that, ordinances/regulations/laws can change or new ones written all the time (Heck, anti gun law makers do it on a daily basis. )

So then you can find out what it would take to do such a thing but since this is a gun forum and I am assuming you are a supporter of gun rights/2A, I would caution against any attempt to erode our gun rights/2A.

Now, if I was the renter and my neighbors reasonably approached me in a friendly manner, I would have discussed shooting option solutions that would make my neighbors less concerned and happier. Perhaps one such solution is a "safer" neighborhood designated shooting area in a different location. Of course that would require some planning and work but would be a better option than a bunch of pissed off neighbors against renters who are exercising their 2A rights without violating any county ordinance.


Just because every neighbor demand that you drive electric only vehicle does not make it right if you don't want to if there is no mandate for you to do so.

And none of us were there so we have to take your word how the renters were approached by the neighbors, which BTW is second hand information as you yourself did not directly talk to the renters.

Who knows, put yourself in the renters position and a bunch of angry neighbors told you, "Are you crazy? You can't shoot there!" So you check with local LE and county ordinances and they say you can. Well, would you then tell the angry neighbors to get stuffed too?

Of course, my opinions only.

Local LE has said that no law is being violated. They have been there, they have seen the lay of the land, and they have said sorry can’t help ya. Talking to the renters as a prerequisite of making a complaint is kind of pointless when it has already been stated that what they are doing is permissible.
I do not live out there, I have a woodshop in an old two car garage that I poured several thousand dollars (If I’d know how much the rehab was going to end up costing I never would have started it) into fixing up. In the summertime I mow and bag about two acres at least once a week. The two we are discussing routinely bring their huge dog on the ground I mow to do his business. Since they have moved in, bags of garbage appear from time to time in an area I don’t mow because it’s too rough to do so. Even though anybody with a basic knowledge of gun safety would know better than to fire a gun when someone is down range, they do it anyway. Neighbors have asked them (and while I wasn’t there I’m sure, knowing one of them, that it was politely- at least the first time) not to and they have refused. Why would anybody think “talking” to them is going to do any good? There are people you can reason with. They do not seem to be the type.
Oddly enough, as I was leaving the local Kroger’s tonight I ran into one of our three county commissioners. We’ve known each other since high school. He’s a pretty level headed guy and I wouldn’t be surprised if he is an NRA Life member. We talked for maybe twenty minutes and hopefully I got him thinking a little. This county has a few crossroad communities like Springersville and several more subdivision islands surrounded by cornfields. I don’t think anybody’s 2nd amendment rights are being violated by telling someone they aren’t allowed to set up a range in their back yard and hope an errant shot doesn’t hit the neighbor behind them while she is sitting on the patio. There are states that have laws about shooting too close to neighboring buildings. For thirty years I lived where I could walk out the door and shoot on my out in the pasture range anytime I wanted to. But my nearest neighbor wasn’t fifty feet away and there were no buildings - or people - immediately down range.

 

[LiveLife]

I have a workshop in a very small rural crossroads community. The building is ... over 100 yards from both of the two county roads ... is a rental.

Local LE has said that no law is being violated. They have been there, they have seen the lay of the land, and they have said sorry can’t help ya.

So if there is no county ordinance violation as far as distance to road/structure, what do you plan to do?

I think a friendly, reasonable approach of renters to arrive at a workable solution for both parties could be possible, especially since renters are not breaking any law. But that requires you talking to the renters.

But if you think/believe that is not possible, than perhaps you could be right.

 

[F1]

When you say "local law enforcement" do you mean just one officer you happened to ask? If that's the case I would go to the police station and ask to speak with a supervisor because this sounds like a potentially life threatening situation and I can't believe it is being sanctioned. If that doesn't work try calling the Indiana State Police who handle firearm licensing.

 

[LiveLife]

I found this 2016 article for Fayette County, IN that may be of interest to you - https://thecitizen.com/2016/05/11/ognio-fails-persuade-fayette-allow-target-shooting-10-acres/

"Ognio said a citizen with a 10-acre lot and a proper backstop was informed by code enforcement that he could not fire his rifle into the backstop. This occurred after the resident set up a target practice area and neighbors called county officials to complain."
​

Perhaps you should contact the county and talk to code enforcement and find out how much land is required for private shooting range, how far away other people's property or buildings are required for private shooting range and any noise restriction.

I believe for rural counties, shooting on property must be done at least 50 yards from public roads.

 

[Speedo66]

Have you considered a game camera to document the trash, dog poop, and trespassing?

 

[shoobe01]

Do more research also. Seen plenty of cases of cops showing up, saying "no problem" and... are wrong. Totally a violation. Around here a bunch of kids were run down (no deaths), on video and the cops said "just an accident, no charges." For two days. Then the uproar led to them discovering several things to very reasonably charge.

So check that as well. And then go to the cops, ask for a supervisor. If that fails, try city councilmen, mayor, a letter to the city attorney. Etc.

Documentation is good starting NOW. If a bullet goes through your wall, or your lungs, you want to be able to say "I have been !@#$ing complaining about this for months, it's no one-off accident." Also, looks better in the lawsuit if it comes to that.

Got any lawyer friends? Ask around, you may have a friend of a friend you don't know. They will often write letters for pretty minimal fees. Letterhead carries more weight for a lot of these.

 

[LiveLife]

OP lives in rural county where restriction on discharging firearm is typically minimal.

My parents live in mountainous county on deadend road with about 10 other properties and neighbors shoot regularly. Thankfully, my parents are pro 2A and enjoy shooting from their back porch into the hillside behind the house. Neighbors were friendly and welcomed them when they moved in last year and was particularly happy when they found out parents were pro 2A.

As to OP's situation, since the renters built a backstop, I suggested in my last post that OP could approach from the "private range" angle to see if there are any county requirements.

But if county code enforcement cannot find any violations, then there isn't much OP could do.

That's why I asked if OP talked to the renters.

If it's the case where renters are not violating any county ordinance, a friendly reasonable approach for a workable solution may be the only option that renters would agree to, unless the neighbors already pissed off the renters to the point where that is not an option.

 

[Flintshooter]

I found this 2016 article for Fayette County, IN that may be of interest to you - https://thecitizen.com/2016/05/11/ognio-fails-persuade-fayette-allow-target-shooting-10-acres/

"Ognio said a citizen with a 10-acre lot and a proper backstop was informed by code enforcement that he could not fire his rifle into the backstop. This occurred after the resident set up a target practice area and neighbors called county officials to complain."
​

Perhaps you should contact the county and talk to code enforcement and find out how much land is required for private shooting range, how far away other people's property or buildings are required for private shooting range and any noise restriction.

I believe for rural counties, shooting on property must be done at least 50 yards from public roads.

You might have been searching for Fayette county Indiana, but from what I see that is from Fayette county Mississippi. Connersville in Indiana is Fayette county, Connelllsville, PA is also in Fayette county. There is a Fayette county in KY. Fayette is a popular name for counties.
Codes here can be interesting. When the first one was proposed there was nothing to stop a farmer from building two 4000 head CAFOs (pigs in this case) right next to a rural subdivision. That has changed, but another law hasn’t. It may be alright to shoot near and toward other buildings out in the county, but if you were to buy fifty wooded acres and build a road to the middle of it, you would not be allowed to put a house trailer in even temporarily.

 

[MedWheeler]

George P writes:

here in Florida, you need a minimum of 10 acres and then you'd better have a safe backstop and not shoot towards other structures.

Here are quotes from the actual state statutes involved. There is no "ten acres requirement." Because Florida is still a "preemption state", local ordinances with tighter restrictions are not lawful.

..any person who knowingly discharges a firearm in any public place or on the right-of-way of any paved public road, highway, or street, who knowingly discharges any firearm over the right-of-way of any paved public road, highway, or street or over any occupied premises, or who recklessly or negligently discharges a firearm outdoors on any property used primarily as the site of a dwelling as defined in s. 776.013 or zoned exclusively for residential use commits a misdemeanor of the first degree..

Any person who recreationally discharges a firearm outdoors, including target shooting, in an area that the person knows or reasonably should know is primarily residential in nature and that has a residential density of one or more dwelling units per acre, commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. This subsection does not apply:
(a) To a person lawfully defending life or property or performing official duties requiring the discharge of a firearm;
(b) If, under the circumstances, the discharge does not pose a reasonably foreseeable risk to life, safety, or property;

Curiously, the first statute quoted only prohibits reckless or negligent discharge of a firearm on one's homesite. This law was amended fairly recently after press-generated hysteria over "backyard shooting ranges." The previous law prohibited the unsafe discharge of firearms on residential property, but this amended version seems only to be a re-phrase of the original. Still, I'm not about to test the legal determination of the new version's intent.

 

[bassjam]

If you read all the posts you will know that I haven’t and why. But to save you some trouble. The owners of every house surrounding the renters have asked them not to and they have all been told they can get stuffed. There is no point in me adding my voice to the ignored.

I still think it's worth your time for you to talk to them since you are in the direct line of fire. My parents had a similar situation where a neighbor was shooting about 100 yards from their house and they could actually hear the bullets zipping through the trees next to them. Both they and another set of neighbors complained to the cops, but nothing happened. One day I was there at the river on my parents property with my family fishing, and I heard them start shooting and sure enough, the bullets were zipping 15ft over our heads. I immediately moved my family against the bank where they were protected, and I went downstream about 100 yards where I could approach the shooters from a safe direction. They immediately took defense and said I was full of <removed by moderator> because the sheriff had been there twice and told them their "range" was perfectly safe. Mind you, this range was a 3' hill at about a 10° grade and the target was a 2x6 propped up against some other scrap lumber. I again let them know my family was currently pinned against the bank because we heard bullets zipping through the air and going through the leaves right over our heads and that they NEEDED to stop shooting immediately and never shoot that direction again. They essentially told me to F off, but they did stop shooting and since then (it's been 2 years) my parents haven't noticed them shooting again.

It might be worth asking the sheriff to go over there with you when you speak to them. Many sheriff offices are willing to do that sort of thing, and your conversation will probably hold more weight.

 

[bdickens]

Maybe your other neighbors went over there huffing and puffing and generally acting like <removed by moderator>. I'm sure that since you are friendly and neighborly to these people, you can speak to them calmly, diplomatically and work out an amicable compromise.

 

[George P]

George P writes:



Here are quotes from the actual state statutes involved. There is no "ten acres requirement." Because Florida is still a "preemption state", local ordinances with tighter restrictions are not lawful.





Curiously, the first statute quoted only prohibits reckless or negligent discharge of a firearm on one's homesite. This law was amended fairly recently after press-generated hysteria over "backyard shooting ranges." The previous law prohibited the unsafe discharge of firearms on residential property, but this amended version seems only to be a re-phrase of the original. Still, I'm not about to test the legal determination of the new version's intent.

Well, YOU can tell that to the Code Enforcement officers in Marion County.........a tough bunch of SOBs..........

 

[Frank Ettin]

.. local LE have told them there is nothing that can be done. ...

LE and, as shown by the responses in this thread, most people when considering legal recourse think in terms of a specific law which prohibits something and which is being violated. But "law" is much richer than that.

There is the legal concept of nuisance.

1. Here's one definition:

   ....A private nuisance is a civil wrong; it is the unreasonable, unwarranted, or unlawful use of one's property in a manner that substantially interferes with the enjoyment or use of another individual's property, without an actual Trespass or physical invasion to the land.

   
   
2. Here's another:

   ...
   an activity or physical condition that is indecent or offensive to the senses, or interferes with another person’s reasonable use and enjoyment of life or property.
   
   Whether a property owner near you is creating a nuisance depends upon the unique facts and circumstances of the situation....

If you believe that activities of a neighbor on his property are unreasonably interfering with your safety on your property or your use and enjoyment of your property, you could bring a civil suit seeking damages or an injunction (a type of court order) that the neighbor forebear from those activities. Your chances for a good outcome will depend on local law, including applicable case law, and the exact facts.

...None of the neighbors who live out there are happy about them shooting so close to everybody,....

So the OP could consider getting together with his neighbors and sharing the cost of a consultation with a lawyer. A knowledgeable, local lawyer should be able to assess the situation under local law and help pursue appropriate litigation if it would be worthwhile.

 

[LiveLife]

For me, I have found during my short 53 years, legal approach is the last option of choice and the fastest way to put the other party on the defensive and on counterattack/retaliation. "Oh yeah? My lawyer can beat your lawyer" (Sometimes, paying for a good lawyer is worth every penny)

I have found often open friendly non-threatening dialogue could evoke similar response from the other party, especially if the other party holds the upper hand/advantage in the situation. (And after checking several state/county's ordinances on discharging firearm on property/private ranges, renters may be able to)

And we are only hearing from the OP's second hand information as OP has not even talked to the renters. Even if the renters turn out to be defiant jerks OP's neighbors claim, OP has nothing to lose by cordially talking to the renters.

What if, and this is only hypothetical, that it is the neighbors being unreasonable and trying to impose on the renters' right to shoot? I mean, the renters did build a backstop and OP has not expressed that stray bullets were zipping past the workshop.

Of course, my opinion only.

 

[LiveLife]

Codes here can be interesting.

And why I suggested you contact the county code enforcement to find out.

Perhaps you should contact the county and talk to code enforcement

And agree with Frank's comment that you could find out if any past complaint for noise/safety concern resulted in forcing another neighbor to stop shooting on their property.

LE ... think in terms of a specific law which prohibits something and which is being violated

... Your chances for a good outcome will depend on local law, including applicable case law, and the exact facts.

Good advice, especially if the OP does not want to talk to the renters

So the OP could consider getting together with his neighbors and sharing the cost of a consultation with a lawyer. A knowledgeable, local lawyer should be able to assess the situation under local law and help pursue appropriate litigation if it would be worthwhile.

 

[CapnMac]

Really, given OP's 9somewhat reasonable) reluctance to bother the source of the problem, or to harry LE until the problems is abated, they really only have one other option.

And that would be to start watching the home center sales pages and buy up bagged planting materials--soil, peat moss, mulch, etc.--and start up a back stop on their own property. (Using bagged goods as "sandbags" will be cheaper than trying to erect some sort of other backstop of metal and wood, or soil-packed tires to the height probably required.)

It's that, or take the loss and quit the property.