Scattergun Tech MIM extractor???

[swampboy]

I was puzzled by something that I noticed while watching a Hickok45 video. On his Scattergun Tech 870, there appears to be a MIM extractor installed. I'm not knocking ST/Wilson Combat at all, I'm just wondering that, if ST/WC doesn't have a problem with the MIM ext, then is it really that big of a deal? Also, do they maybe just offer a-la-cart services where the customer can choose only the upgrades they want? I was under the impression that the MIM part would be one of the first things changed out in a defensive shotgun.

Please look at 16:46 through 16:56 of the video. Notice the vertical mold line, only found on the MIM extractor.

 

[Virginian]

There is nothing wrong with a properly designed and manufactured MIM part. However if there is a chance the manufacturing is/was not tightly controlled, since non-destructive testing of every part is out, a forged part could be favored because of the much looser requirements during forging to produce a good part. Remington apparently did have some issues with MIM extractors on early Expresses that used them, so people were swapping them out. It now appears they solved the issues and have started employing them on other lines as well. Your choice.

 

[strambo]

I ordered a tool steel replacement for my 870, it is a cheap part. The MIM one is probably fine though.

 

[DPris]

MIM itself is not the broad issue with Remington 870 extractors.
The specific issue is THOSE MIM parts.
There were problems with them, and I don't know if Remington's corrected them.

Presumably Wilson/Scattergun would not be using them if they were still problematic, but I would not use one in my own gun.

I was sad to see the sale of the original Scattergun Tech operation to Wilson.
Nothing against Wilson, but I have a Class III 870 that the old company did, based on the first Express models before they cheapened the guns, and the current outfit does not do the same work.
Denis

 

[grampajack]

Wilson, IIRC, was using MIM parts on their less expensive 1911s for a while. They discontinued the practice without ever really offering a good explanation as to why, though they claimed vehemently that the MIM parts already out in the wild were just as good as any others. I'm not buying it, as there seems to be a definite correlation between companies switching to MIM parts and their guns going to crap.

 

[Virginian]

MIM manufacturing must be tightly controlled as to time and temperature. That costs money for equipment/controls. Many companies have stopped making MIM parts because the people they were making them for were not happy with the results. Most of the ones left have made the investment. Apparently Remington solved their earlier issues, but I believe you can still buy a forged unit if you want one. As an aside, the only one I have ever broken was a forged one.

 

[grampajack]

MIM manufacturing must be tightly controlled as to time and temperature. That costs money for equipment/controls. Many companies have stopped making MIM parts because the people they were making them for were not happy with the results. Most of the ones left have made the investment. Apparently Remington solved their earlier issues, but I believe you can still buy a forged unit if you want one. As an aside, the only one I have ever broken was a forged one.

I actually went on an engineering forum one day and asked about MIM vs. cast. Everyone there told me that doing MIM the right way was more expensive than alternative means, and more difficult. Apparently it has its uses, but when you see it used in guns I think it's safe to assume, at least for the time being, that it's not done right and is used purely as a cost saving measure.

 

[Virginian]

Whoever said that on that engineering forum was wrong, and I say that as an engineer. It gives you the ability to make many small and intricate parts that would otherwise have to be individually machined in one batch. The completed parts usually require minimal or no machining. Yes you can crank the parts out on CNC equipment, but look at the production rate, and tooling changes or multiple machines. If you already have an oven the control system with safeguards is pocket change compared to one CNC mill. Yes it is a cost savings, but so is almost everything else, including plastic stocks. Investment casting got it's start as a savings over forged machined parts too.

 

[PabloJ]

When buying something at premium price I would want it to have premium small parts otherwise I would buy one of them 870 tacticals with extended magazine. From practical standpoint I would not need forged part on gun like that because it would be shot/used little and basically constitute expensive "dust collecting door stop". Instead of specialized HD model I now use my hunting shotgun for HD purposes.

 

[grampajack]

Whoever said that on that engineering forum was wrong, and I say that as an engineer. It gives you the ability to make many small and intricate parts that would otherwise have to be individually machined in one batch. The completed parts usually require minimal or no machining. Yes you can crank the parts out on CNC equipment, but look at the production rate, and tooling changes or multiple machines. If you already have an oven the control system with safeguards is pocket change compared to one CNC mill. Yes it is a cost savings, but so is almost everything else, including plastic stocks. Investment casting got it's start as a savings over forged machined parts too.

Okay, but do you have any firsthand experience with MIM? Because you've directly contradicted everything I was told by people who had worked with it. They said it's hideously expensive to get tooled up to do it in the first place, then it's hideously expensive to monitor the QC closely enough to get CNC level precision. They also went into detail about the different grades of metal powders, saying that the ones you need to get CNC level precision were too expensive to use MIM as a replacement for CNC. Yes, you can get CNC level precision, but it costs more than CNC to do it. There's also the problem of surface hardening, which is done during the sintering process with MIM, and is extremely difficult to get correct. The result of all this is that most MIM parts aren't dimensionally accurate and don't have the proper hardness. Which is fine if you're building a toaster, but not so great for guns or any other precision instrument.

But don't take my word for it. The proof is in the pudding. Compare prices on MIM vs cast parts. Take something simple and common like a Glock extractor. Both the MIM and cast versions are around 15 bucks. As a matter of fact, when I ordered a replacement extractor for my G19 the cast version was a few bucks cheaper. And we're talking about the most common replacement part for the most common handgun in the world. You absolutely can't get better economy of scale than that in the firearms industry.

BTW, investment casting wasn't developed as a cost saving measure. Both forging and investment casting had been around for about 5000 years before the first machines were developed. It's also not fair to say that plastic stocks were adopted as a cost saving measure. They were developed because they possess HUGE benefits over wood, and initially the technology was way more expensive. Early plastics weren't exactly cheap.

 

[Virginian]

Yes I do have real world experience with MIM, and there are a ton of factors that all come in to play. You could wrie a book, and some have. Everything from how busy the fabricator is with other work to the price of one alloy ingredient the day they bought it all factor in. How much profit margin someone wants to make is a huge factor. Investment casting has not been around for centuries. It is not like regular casting. And the first plastic stocks were a cost saving measure. After several false starts they finally gained traction and then they started touting the advantages so they could increase profit margin.

 

[grampajack]

Yes I do have real world experience with MIM, and there are a ton of factors that all come in to play. You could wrie a book, and some have. Everything from how busy the fabricator is with other work to the price of one alloy ingredient the day they bought it all factor in. How much profit margin someone wants to make is a huge factor. Investment casting has not been around for centuries. It is not like regular casting. And the first plastic stocks were a cost saving measure. After several false starts they finally gained traction and then they started touting the advantages so they could increase profit margin.

Yes, investment casting has been around for 5000 years. They use more advanced materials today, obviously, but the process wasn't developed to save money. It preexisted machines and was always used next to forging, not as a cheap replacement for it. It's a completely separate and unique technology that exists independently on its own merits.

As for plastic furniture, the first use I'm aware of was bakelite used by the Germans on their SMGs. It wasn't cheap, and it certainly wasn't developed as a cheap alternative to wood. It was favored for many applications because of its intrinsic qualities. To this day, polymer furniture isn't used just because it's cheaper. Even if it cost twice as much as wood it would still be overwhelmingly favored.

The only parallel you could draw between those things and MIM is that they're valuable technologies that can all be abbreviated and used to produce cheap stuff, but in so doing you produce something of substandard quality. The fact of the matter is that MIM isn't cheaper than casting unless you cut the quality controls. Just look at the prices of MIM vs cast parts. You're not saving any money by going with the MIM, and from what I've seen they're mostly inferior. Then take a look at premium guns like Sphinx, Nighthawk, Wilson, etc. They all avoid MIM like the plague. If MIM is cheaper and better than cast CNC, like so many people claim, then why aren't the custom shops sourcing MIM parts? And why did Wilson beat a hasty retreat from MIM? I'm sorry, but nothing you're saying is adding up. Maybe MIM will be cheaper one day, but I'm not seeing it yet.

 

[Virginian]

Okay you win, the gun makers are using it because it costs more.

 

[greyeyezz]

My 20 year old express has a MIM extractor and has more rounds through it than I can possibly count, its a non issue by now.

 

[grampajack]

Okay you win, the gun makers are using it because it costs more.

I believe they're using it to save money so they don't have to raise the price of the guns, to the detriment of quality. However, I don't think it's panned out for them like they thought it would.

 

[Virginian]

MIM is only cost effective for many identical parts, hence you will only see it on large production items.
Another treasure trove of internet wisdom.
If you don't like it just buy a forged one.

 

[swampboy]

My 20 year old express has a MIM extractor and has more rounds through it than I can possibly count, its a non issue by now.

My Express HD is 15 years old and has the MIM extractor. It hasn't been shot all that much though. Still, I'd think that Wilson Combat would change out this relatively inexpensive part on a "custom" build. If for no other reason, to appease the many customers who might not like/trust MIM parts. If I'm not mistaken, the Police and Wingmaster 870's still come with the steel extractor, so why not a high-end, custom "fighting" shotgun?