.38 Special
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I've changed my mind since I wrote that post. I now carry a rolled up knitting magazine in my sock. Let them come.
Self defense options for carry on flying in the USA
- Thread starter joneb
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Practice throwing your laptop or Ipad as a whirling tool of ninja death! Why am I saying this - at work after several school shootings, of course, no guns but it was suggested that you throw your lap top. For curiosity, at the range before a match, I got a non-working laptop from IT. Had a guy sitting at a table with the open PC. Had another gun - a practiced shooter, stand with a holster hand gun, facing an array of targets. At the beep, lap top guy had to get up and throw the lap tap and gun guy open fire. First, by the time you got up and folded the lap top and threw it, gun guy double tapped three to four targets. Also, you could throw the lap top that far. If in any classroom unless you were in the front row of a lecture hall, all you would do it brain someone a few rows ahead of you. You are not Xena, Warrior Princess with her discus.
Bcwitt
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The first time you get punched in the face w a magazine on end you will understand. Hopefully your teeth won't be dislodged.
.38 Special
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I have no doubt a near-perfect hit would do some damage. I also have no doubt it would take either many, many such hits, or else a great deal of luck, to score a fight-ending hit with one, and frankly, your opponent would have to be the worst fighter on the planet if he could not figure out how to avoid being hit with a magazine.
Seriously, that's one of the main problems with so many "improvised weapons": they'd work great, if you could just get your opponent to stand still for them.
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Bcwitt
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The context of the thread was ON A PLANE. That doesn't give you a lot to work with. I doubt very much you have Martial arts skills if you cannot see how that could be effective.
.38 Special
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It's because I have training that I understand how unrealistic the idea is. I can imagine myself trying to use it, and I can imagine defending against it.
As an attacker, I think it would simply get in the way. Used in an overhand grip, it wouldn't be any more damaging than a fist or an elbow, and isn't going to give a significant reach advantage. In a forward grip, you are limited by your grip strength, along with pages sliding against each other. The only thing it offers is a few inches of reach, and that simply isn't worth much in a close-quarters fight.
As a defender, it's easy to block/slip/redirect, and consequences for taking it on your arm or hand are essentially nil. Similarly, getting inside an attacker's defenses would be simple and relatively risk-free.
Short version: a trained man would gain no advantage with such a thing, and an untrained man would be just as useless with it as without. Again, there simply is nothing in an airport or airplane that would allow a man to prevail in a fight he would otherwise have lost.
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.38 Special
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Of course, folks should do their own research and make up their own minds. Just remember, though: "Death can result".
.38 Special
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The only real - meaning not bullshido - trainer I can find who has done a video on the concept is Doug Marcaida. Again, I'd urge folks to make up their own minds after reviewing the evidence.
The confines and configuration of an airliner (or bus or similarly confined and configured setting) restricts options in how effectively defensive techniques can be used. Techniques that work in open spaces are restrained by narrow aisles, low overheads, and bolted down seats.
Some of what has been thought of here works better in open spaces instead of confined and constrained spaces and work better with training, but that's the same problem with empty hand and purpose built weapons as well in these narrow configurations.
It is always important to test and train as close to the environment in which you may have to fight to understand what gives you an advantage and what interferes with your plan.
Always bring all the tools you can, but test how you will have to use them before forced to use them.
Some of what has been thought of here works better in open spaces instead of confined and constrained spaces and work better with training, but that's the same problem with empty hand and purpose built weapons as well in these narrow configurations.
It is always important to test and train as close to the environment in which you may have to fight to understand what gives you an advantage and what interferes with your plan.
Always bring all the tools you can, but test how you will have to use them before forced to use them.
In the narrow confines of a plane aisle the fight is realistically going to go to the person who is bigger/heavier and stronger and acting with the most brutality. Skill is a factor but less so when there's no room to maneuver.
The kinds of weapons I'd want in a fight like that wouldn't be available in the air and improvising them isn't realistic when your bag is under the seat or in the overhead bin and you've been told to sit and not move.
If someone untrained came at me with a smartphone corner or a laptop I'd just laugh. There are some trained people who have some good improvised weapons skills but they're at some very high levels and I won't discuss their techniques on a public forum.
The kinds of weapons I'd want in a fight like that wouldn't be available in the air and improvising them isn't realistic when your bag is under the seat or in the overhead bin and you've been told to sit and not move.
If someone untrained came at me with a smartphone corner or a laptop I'd just laugh. There are some trained people who have some good improvised weapons skills but they're at some very high levels and I won't discuss their techniques on a public forum.
In a plane aisle, all you need is one guy to go in first and soak up whatever the bad guy can dish out in the couple of seconds or so that it takes the rest of the passengers to pile on behind and swamp the bad guy--no technique/training required for either one of those jobs. It's not going to be a standup kung-fu movie type fight where the guy with the best martial arts training wins. It's going to be a bunch of untrained people mobbing the attacker. If a rolled up magazine or a water bottle gives the first guy in line the confidence to charge the guy with the box cutter, then it has done all it needs to do.
Yep.
I have demonstrated hitting a large chunk of log with a common water bottle hard enough to knock it several feet. Yes, training is always a good idea, but even a few minutes striking a good target several times a week can dramatically increase someone's effectiveness.
This is truly fantasy. The "H2H training" most terrorists have who would try to take down a plane is laughable.
Here is just one example of lanyards with striking implements I have carried on flights across the globe. I recent years, though, I've just usually worn a Wilderness belt with a titanium buckle and a padlock on the side of a carry-on.
And, yes, I can strike directly with it, with no warm-up, just an arrow-straight shot.
And, yes, I can strike directly with it, with no warm-up, just an arrow-straight shot.
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.38 Special
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Jab a toothpick hard enough and far enough into an eye and the fight may be over. As always, getting the guy to hold still for it is the trick.
I stand by my statement: there's nothing in an airport or airplane (or just about anywhere else, outside of a retail weapon shop) that will allow a fellow to prevail in a fight he otherwise would have lost.
Old Dog
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So you're saying there's just no hope in fighting back on a commercial airplane? While I agree that there's a butt-ton of internet bluster on the topic...
Presuming that the hi-jacker isn't extensively trained in martial arts (and I'm having trouble envisioning any scenario where the hi-jackers would be, absent a bunch of former Spetsnaz getting onboard Delta Flight 2744 out of Sea-Tac), I think a reasonably fit male with the proper mindset and presence of mind absolutely could prevail one-on-one against a hi-jacker, the average EDP or drunk/drugged fellow passenger.
It doesn't strictly matter what items one may have available on the aircraft to use as weapons of opportunity.
Been in a couple fights over the years outside of just training. That's not how it goes. Give me something to stab, slash or hit someone with, I don't need him to hold still to receive my blow -- he's gonna get hit some. Unless one is totally unfit or untrained, one doesn't need to ask the guy to hold still so "please can I can hit you with my water bottle."
I'm not talking about using my rolled-up Recoil magazine, my spiffy titanium "tactical" ball-point pen or the MasterLock in my carry-on should I have time to slip it it into one of my extra pair of clean socks in my backpack... I did quite a few prisoner transports on commercial and government aircraft back in the day, used to love watching the passengers. Retired now, I fly a lot these days, and most times, I'm pretty sure there's at least five or six guys who'll have my back if I have to deal with an out-of-control passenger or would-be hi-jacker...
.38 Special
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You are arguing against strawmen; I wrote almost none of that.
.38 Special
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At any rate, I've pretty much beaten my point to death here, so I'll leave you all to it - with one parting shot:
It's notable that THR tells folks that "It's not enough to just have a gun. You have to seek out professional training, you have to practice frequently to maintain that training, and you have to periodically seek out additional training to stay sharp." but then also says "Don't have a gun with you? Well, get a water bottle or a rolled-up magazine. Maybe practice hitting something with it. You'll be fine".
Bottom line: if after thoughtful and sober study a fellow decides that such an approach is rational, then have at it. I only hope that a false sense of security doesn't encourage him to enter a fight he really shouldn't have. As for everyone else, I'll go right back to my opening statement here: if you're truly concerned with unarmed combat, then go sign up for some unarmed combat training. It really doesn't have to be anything more committed than the local Krav gym; three to six months of twice-a-week classes will put you far ahead, if it ever comes to an unarmed fight.
It's notable that THR tells folks that "It's not enough to just have a gun. You have to seek out professional training, you have to practice frequently to maintain that training, and you have to periodically seek out additional training to stay sharp." but then also says "Don't have a gun with you? Well, get a water bottle or a rolled-up magazine. Maybe practice hitting something with it. You'll be fine".
Bottom line: if after thoughtful and sober study a fellow decides that such an approach is rational, then have at it. I only hope that a false sense of security doesn't encourage him to enter a fight he really shouldn't have. As for everyone else, I'll go right back to my opening statement here: if you're truly concerned with unarmed combat, then go sign up for some unarmed combat training. It really doesn't have to be anything more committed than the local Krav gym; three to six months of twice-a-week classes will put you far ahead, if it ever comes to an unarmed fight.
I agree. At the very least a few days of training provides a reality check of what does and doesn't work. Competency takes months to years, true proficiency takes years to decades.
danez71
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I guess that's it.
Get trained in MMA & forfeit any options for using an object.
No MMA training? ...Stay in at recess.
Where does it say that last part?
danez71
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100% Agreed.
When me and my larger brother would fly,,, I'd go 1st and low ...and he'd follow right behind and go high. 2 person mob.
And really really hope that others help.
As far as objects go... anything that I think would give me a better chance over having nothing.
Lint on the floor... or a quick prayer... If it helps, even just for confidence, then it helps.
That's the thread.... what objects to have/use over nothing.
And this is a good time to let this one close instead of continuing the back and forth.
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