"Shoot them in the Crotch"?

[Deltaboy1984]

I seen one guy shot down there by a Lady using 12 gauge with #4 Duck load! He bleed out and it left a nasty wound in Man Land! We got to see alot of stuff the 5 years I worked at the Hospital in LR Arkansas!

 

[CapnMac]

The major problem here is in the words we use.

"Crotch shot" suggests the groin area, not the centroid of the pelvis. Examine the images above and note how that changes the sight picture.

The "best" pelvis shot is actually right at the last lumbar, very much near where the descending aorta bifructes into the femoral arteries. Next best are the hip sockets. But the hip sockets are hard to visualize on a clothed person, and are about a 1.5-2" (call it a 30mm) target to hit.

But, all of this is hard to visualize on a clothed person. The lumbar-sacral joint is about the middle of the bottom of the 1 ring on a COM target. It's really much closer to the navel than the groin. Which, given current "fashion" trends would be especially hard to visualize.

Is it possible? Sure. Useful? Potentially, particularly when presented a side or oblique target. Where you need to remember to hold to the "back" for COM, then the pelvis/hips are a good shot placement--if they can be visualized.

That's 2¢ worth, spend it accordingly

 

[OneFreeTexan]

Not sure if this has been posted, a few years ago a lady after getting her carry license in Texas had opportunity to shoot a guy breaking into her home.....shot him in self defense, right in the groin, can’t remember if it was a handgun or shotgun,, No charges filed against her,, In the tv interview they asked how it felt so shoot a man there and ‘ruin his reproductive ability for the rest of his life’. She smile and said “It felt good, real good’

Cut, cut, end of interview.

 

[Kendal Black]

I think it was Dave Spaulding, many years ago, who pointed out that if someone is trying to aim a gun at you, he is not moving his head. That is calling the turn a bit closer than I like, but I think it bears consideration.

There just aren't any good answers to the failure to stop.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The problem is, as inviting as a pelvic shot seems, the target is really small. The hip isn't nearly as big as your fist. Much of the rest of the pelvic area isn't all that vital, and there are no vital organs in that area. If you can hit the hip, you can hit the brain or heart much more easily.

 

[luger fan]

In the Marines theDesignated Marksman, M-14, would aim for the center of the stomach. If the shot was low we would hit the groin, if high the neck/head.

Also now where EVERYONE wears a vest, I have 2.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

Shoot the target that is available to you, If that means its a pelvic shot vs COM then take it, you will not always get the shot you wish for.

 

[Elkins45]

If you’re taking a beat down and end up on your back with two or three guys standing over top of you, a crotch shot might actually be the easiest one.

 

[Archie]

The pelvic girdle shot is 'iffy'. If one breaks the hip joint (where the femur engages the pelvis), the subject is not able to walk or stand. Which does not mean he cannot fight back. If the shot hits the broad area of the pelvic bone, the shot is likely to simply poke a hole in said bone without much immediate effect. Intentionally shooting for the hip joint is a rather small target, probably smaller than the portion of the head suitable for immediate stopping.

In those cases where the belligerent is partially protected, by vest, wall, bridge support or whatgotcha, one takes the shot available.

A shot which leaves one in pain for a week does not guarantee a cessation of action immediately. A relatively minor wound will over time be potentially disabling. (One of the villains in the North Hollywood bank robbery was removed from hostilities by shooting him in the foot or ankle under a car. Then further shots were available.)

 

[SSN Vet]

I think it's a valid target.

Over focusing on COM shots does not take into account the possibility of someone wearing a vest.

 

[coloradokevin]

The pelvis is a valid target, and training to shoot at the pelvic girdle isn't new. They taught that in the police academy over 15 years ago. But, the rationale behind taking a shot like this mostly involved overcoming some other obstacle to stopping your attacker: guy wearing body armor, only target that presented itself, etc.

 

[herrwalther]

The problem is, as inviting as a pelvic shot seems, the target is really small. The hip isn't nearly as big as your fist. Much of the rest of the pelvic area isn't all that vital, and there are no vital organs in that area. If you can hit the hip, you can hit the brain or heart much more easily.

You are only taking into consideration the large wing of the illium bones on the left and right sides of the pelvic girdle. The purpose of the pelvis is to support the upper torso while providing the multitude maneuverability of the lower torso and legs. The whole pelvis is a very important part in stabilizing virtually all types of movement we need to use as bipeds. The only other joint that offers as much versatility of movement as the hip would be the Carpometacarpal joint of the thumb.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

In SOI, when we were practicing failure drills, we were taught that alternately to COM, we could train to engage the pelvis as our body shots. Aside from skeletal support, there are major arteries that go through there. Plus, the hips are less likely to be protected by body armor. If they are still standing after you engage the pelvis, they should at least be static enough to make the CNS shot manageable.

I still train to engage COM first, if that is an option, but for sure if I had a bead on the pelvis of a guy trying to kill me, that is a shot I would take. Also, if I am training John Wick style, grappling range with a handgun, I've practiced engaging the pelvis from retention position before getting off the X and gaining distance, then pushing the gun out and engaging COM.

 

[1911 guy]

Ideal and available are two very different things. If you wait for the ideal shot, you will lose. If you need to apply force, do it to whatever target is available.
If someone is a threat and all I can see is the big toe, I will put a bullet squarely in the middle of that big toe.
Handguns are anemic when compared to rifles. Pray you never need to use force. But if you do, poke as many holes as you can in as many places as you can until the threat stops.

 

[Winkman822]

When I've had training instructors advise to fire at the crotch, it's typically been in the context of the excrement is hitting the fan at bad breath distance and out of the holster, that's the first target the muzzle will cross. Consequently, putting a round or two there is intended to give time to get up to a retention position to continue firing until you can eventually walk up to proper COM or head shot(s) if necessary.

 

[TikkaShooter]

Simply said and as gang bangers know, the first hit usually wins..

Paul Harrell and his bud Brian are good people and well worth paying attention to what they say.

 

[rpenmanparker]

I saw a short video (you can find it via a search of the title phrase on Google or YouTube), advocating doing just that in a close quarters defensive situation. But I'm not interested in talking about that video so much as the effect doing so could have on an attacker.

In numerous videos by Paul Harrell, where he shoots a "meat target", he references the ribs being shattered by the impact of various bullets. So clearly some bullets are capable of shattering some bones (though he uses ribs bought at the store). The Pelvic bone presents a rather large surface area from the front, and when including the lower spine and the tops of the Femurs, presents an even larger area. Now consider that the Pelvis is a critical part (some may consider it the chassis) of the skeletal system, and that it and the muscles surrounding it are also critical to foot travel (as in an attacker advancing upon an intended victim).

View attachment 803968

Does it seem to anyone else that the Pelvis is potentially quite a good target option in a self defense situation, where the goal of defensive firearms use is to stop the attack? I realise the situation changes depending on the circumstances (if the assailant also has a gun). But it occurs to me that whilst a Center-Of-Mass shot (or indeed several) may not stop an attacker from advancing if the Centeral Nervous System is not struck, a hit to the Pelvis could potentially cause enough mechanical damage as to disable the attacker.

Objectively, what do you think?

Peculiarly, the accepted wisdom about what constitutes the best POA to stop am assailant, center mass, happens to also be the best POA to kill the assailant. So you can say the politically correct thing about going for a stop, but in truth the most commonly taught POA is the one most likely to result in a kill. Your suggestion does not share that same characteristic and, as such, is most likely not a good choice. Disabling an assailant’s mobility by a pelvic shot does not provide an acceptable probability of taking away their ability to shoot.

As an aside head shots that hit the “head box” rectangle are nearly sure to stop the assailant. Unfortunately the area of the rectangle is so much smaller than the center mass area that the chance of a miss reduces the probability of a stop to an unacceptable level.

 

[luger fan]

Not good. THE BEST. With all the vests being worn a crotch shot will bring them out of a fight. quick.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Simply said and as gang bangers know, the first hit usually wins.

Sure, and the operative word is "usually." It is a vague term when you are considering life and death fighting. The problem with believing this is that far too often, the first hit doesn't win. There are plenty of cops, gang bangers, FBI, and military folks who have learned this the hard way.

 

[Kleanbore]

Crotch/pelvis is a valid place to put rounds IMO.

Those who spend time shooting at a stationary silhouette target and believing that to break reflective of the real world might come to that conclusion.

But in a self defense situation, where immediate necessity factors would justify the lawful use of deadly force, no.

I would suggest that two or three FoF exercises using simunitions, where the defender is surprised, starts with a holstered firearm, and is attacked by a person moving very fast from around a car or gas pumps, would disabuse one of that belief very effectively.

 

[entropy]

OTOH, if you are half under the car, checking a tire, or mechanical failure, it's about the only shot you've got. Or if he's on top of you pounding/stabbing away. Never say never. It's not on the top of the list of areas to shoot at on the human body, but it beats not putting them on the body.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Those who spend time shooting at a stationary silhouette target and believing that to break reflective of the real world might come to that conclusion.

But in a self defense situation, where immediate necessity factors would justify the lawful use of deadly force, no.

I would suggest that two or three FoF exercises using simunitions, where the defender is surprised, starts with a holstered firearm, and is attacked by a person moving very fast from around a car or gas pumps, would disabuse one of that belief very effectively.

I shoot a lot of paper, to be sure, and I am the furthest from a tactical operator but I am not sure you read the whole post? Perhaps my writing skills are sub-par.

I don't see many people (myself included) in the thread advocating that the pelvis be a primary target.

Most of what I am seeing is more along the lines of "if it is available, go for it" or "if X doesn't work, go for it."
Center of Mass is still the best option, IMO.

I don't think that even partaking in FoF training (while absolutely fantastic) gives you a crystal ball on how your next violent encounter will go or what shots are available at what times. Simulations are, just that, simulations. They are dependent on the instructor's knowledge/study/experiences and the methodology and skill sets the student brings to the course.

The kind of encounter where a pelvic shot would be appropriate is likely still rare, but I don't see how shooting someone in the pelvis is going to be especially bad for you.

It is my opinion that the guy who puts rounds on target first creates advantage.

ETA:
I don't see a lot of difference in "Shooting from retention" and "Shoot them in the crotch." Seems like if you are shooting from retention you may be shooting them in the crotch, maybe not.

 

[Kleanbore]

Center of Mass is still the best option, IMO.

Yep, iff center mass is presented to you as a target.

But the idea "If the pelvis is the first thing the muzzle crosses in the defensive encounter, I advocate pressing a shot there (or two) on the way up to center mass" would only work reliably if () there were little moment and (2) time were not of the essence. With an assailant moving at "Tueller speed", pressing a shot when one sees whatever the muzzle has crossed would result in a hit somewhere else, after that target has moved some distance. That may be within the pelvic area, or maybe not, but the crotch represents a much smaller target and would be too elusive for that.

I don't think that even partaking in FoF training (while absolutely fantastic) gives you a crystal ball on how your next violent encounter will go or what shots are available at what times.

Of course not. What they will do is educate and train, and give the trainee some idea of just how difficult it is to react quickly and to hit a moving target effectively without hitting someone else.

Simulations are, just that, simulations

Simulations are the only way to gain any real experience before putting oneself at extreme risk, and the only way to get enough experience to be meaningful.

...I don't see how shooting someone in the pelvis is going to be especially bad for you.

How effective do you think it would likely be? This has been discussed here for years, and most people seem to think that a handgun shot to the pelvis would not be very effective. Even if a shot does penetrate the pelvic bone, it may not be immediately weakened.

If it does not prove effective, and if there remains time for better placement of additional shots, that unintentional hit would not be all that bad for you.

This is good advice:

If you wait for the ideal shot, you will lose. If you need to apply force, do it to whatever target is available.

 

[rpenmanparker]

During my Front Sight defensive handgun course I was doing the house clearing simulation when I came upon a bad guy holding a hostage on his right side. I forgot the recommendation to take head shots in that situation and put two in the perp's heart instead. I didn't get full credit for that, but gotta believe that I made my point with that bad guy. If the pelvis is what you see, then the pelvis is what you shoot.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Yep, iff center mass is presented to you as a target.

We agree. Which is what 99% of people are advocating.

But the idea "If the pelvis is the first thing the muzzle crosses in the defensive encounter, I advocate pressing a shot there (or two) on the way up to center mass" would only work reliably if () there were little moment and (2) time were not of the essence. With an assailant moving at "Tueller speed", pressing a shot when one sees whatever the muzzle has crossed would result in a hit somewhere else, after that target has moved some distance. That may be within the pelvic area, or maybe not, but the crotch represents a much smaller target and would be too elusive for that.

I think the reliability of any shot on target beats waiting for the right shot.

The use case here would be very close distances, likely one handed, from some kind of retention. I don't see an issue with putting rounds on target a soon as possible especially when the end goal is COM.

I think the point is being missed. That is likely my written communication faults.

COM>Pelvic>Extremities>Not being the guy to land the first shot

Of course not. What they will do is educate and train, and give the trainee some idea of just how difficult it is to react quickly and to hit a moving target effectively without hitting someone else.

Simulations are the only way to gain any real experience before putting oneself at extreme risk, and the only way to get enough experience to be meaningful.

I am a huge advocate of training and especially FoF with good quality instructors.

How effective do you think it would likely be? This has been discussed here for years, and most people seem to think that a handgun shot to the pelvis would not be very effective. Even if a shot does penetrate the pelvic bone, it may not be immediately weakened.

It isn't so much as "how effective" but more "better than nothing at this time".
Again, it looks like most in the thread are recommending COM (myself included) but if you lose nothing from a shot there and gain getting a round on target quickly, then why not?

If it does not prove effective, and if there remains time for better placement of additional shots, that unintentional hit would not be all that bad for you.

If it doesn't prove to be effective, you keep with the original plan: COM.

This is good advice:

Agree.