Shooting and moving

[YammyMonkey]

Here's the deal, I'm pretty decent at shooting on the move with the handguns but when I start moving and shooting with the AR my shooting drops off very quickly. I'm talking about real simple movement too, a straight back retreat and fire.

I've been shooting 2 IDPA targets, approx 1-2 yards apart, 3 rounds each target COM. I can keep all 3 inside the 8" COM circle (-0pts) out to about 13 yards, but after that I'm throwing rounds pretty badly. All still staying on target, but at least one per 6 round string is hitting low, high or slightly off to the side.

Keeping focused on the front sight it just moves around way too much past about 13 yards out. I've tried taking baby steps, keeping tension on the sling to help stabilize, keeping an aggressive upper body forward stance, etc. I have about 3K rounds through the gun and I can ring the 300 yard plate about 75% of the time from the bench so the gun is fine and I'm familiar with it. I probably have close to 500 rounds through it practicing shooting on the move. No forward vertical grip or optics/laser on the gun.

Any suggestions or things to try? Standing still I can easily hit the COM, but the movement really throws things off.

 

[Ivy Mike]

When I started shooting while moving, I began doing so the way a drunk might try to walk a straight line. Just put one in front of the other slowly. You can even heel-toe it if you like. Going slow will give you the accuracy you seek while allowing you to move. After you can repeatedly put shots in COM that way, start speeding up and taking larger steps.
Another thing, are you wearing ear plugs or muffs? I've found I get screwed up trying to move and shoot while wearing ear plugs. Seems to throw my balance off a bit.

As far as doing it with a rifle, do the same thing, but work extra hard on target retention. Your whole upper body is moving and you can't use your arms as independently as you can with a handgun. If it help, tie a length of string at a certain height on two posts. Make them several yards apart. As you move, try to keep the barrel of the rifle just above the string or just below it. Don't touch it and if you do, start over. Start slow and speed up as you gain skill. When going backwards, also step first with your toes and roll back onto your heels. This smooths your motion a bit.

 

[Steve in PA]

Use your legs as shock absorbers......don't bounce when you walk.

A couple of years ago I took the NRA LEO Patrol Rifle Instructor Course and lots of time was spent on shooting/moving.

It was easy for me not to bounce, since way back when.......my DI's taught me well.

 

[stevelyn]

Try shuffling your feet especially if you're moving backwards. When moving forward short steps and roll your feet heel-to-toe. When moving laterally you want to shuffle also. Shuffling allows your feet to slide across the ground feeling for obstacles that can cause you to lose your balance.
Also remember that shooting on the move with a rifle or carbine is going to be a short range affair where you have no cover and no other option. In most cases outside a free fire zone, you won't be self-providing cover fire on the move nor would there be any need to. There's too many rounds addressed to "To Whom It May Concern" in doing so.

 

[yorec]

Some things I concentrate on that help -

A. The heal to toe (or toe to heel if moving backwards) roll of the foot. This decreases impact shock with each step.

B. Moving with joints bent - the shock absorber mentioned earlier - knees, hips, and shoulders forward (part of your "aggressive shooting stance") This is where you try to keep from bouncind as you walk. Takes some practice with some people.

C. And, last but not least, time your shots to go off when you have both feet on the ground. If it goes off during a foot plant there will be some impact that will goober up your aim unless you're really practiced at moving smoothly. That will come with practice of A and B...

 

[YammyMonkey]

Thanks for the info, what would you say would be the max range for shoot-n-move with a carbine vs. run like mad to cover then return fire? Out to 10-13 yds I'm fine, even moving kinda quickly, but when I start at the 15yd line and go backward it's like I'm a totally different shooter. I start having one or two shots out of 6 that hit out the 8" circle and I'm moving like a turtle.

I've been doing a lot of what you've suggested; the shuffling, bent knees, hips and shoulders forward, de-bouncing my steps already helped a lot, I'll give the string drill a try and concentrate on the toe-heel/heel toe a try and on timing the shots with the feet planted.

What's kind of odd/frustrating is that every couple of tries I get three shots off real quick on one target, then transition to the other and I really have to take my time and concentrate because the muzzle starts moving all over the place.

Haven't even tried much of the side-to-side yet, trying to figure out moving while staying in-line with the targets first.

I'm heading to the range in a bit, will update with the new techniques.

 

[Preacherman]

If you move slowly enough to be accurate with your return fire, you're also moving slowly enough for the enemy to get a good, accurate shot at you. Forget all the "school talk" about how to move slowly and carefully - if there's incoming fire, get the @#$% out of the way, as fast as you can. If you want to put rounds downrange to frighten them and put them off their aim, that can be done, but it's also extremely risky (in legal terms) for a private citizen - we are responsible for each and every round we fire, and blind, unaimed fire like that is all too likely to hit something (or someone) uninvolved in the encounter. Guess who's going to land up in court (and possibly in jail) over that?

I'd much rather find decent cover and then return fire, making sure that every shot counts.

 

[lunaslide]

Great suggestions. I would only add that a red dot type scope really helps with fast aquisition of targets and that a front vertical grip, at least for me, makes shooting in this kind of scenario much easier. A lot of people put a front grip on, but never use it! I find that it helps me stabilize and manuever the rifle more easily.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

When I practice moving while shooting with a rifle, I find concentrating on the following concepts helps me score good hits:

1) Stock out of shoulder pocket and more towards collarbone
2) Squared off "subgun" stance
3) Rotate elbows inward to support as much weight as possible using my back muscles (a vert grip or magwell grip can help some people with this one)
4) Forward lean
5) Focus on front sight

It can also help to time your shooting to your movement - to use an example, if you fire everytime both feet are on the ground or every time you lift your left foot or what have you. Personally I find it easier to fire when both feet are on the ground; but the key concept is that if you have a good stable upper-body platform, then your barrel will be pointing at the same place every time that right foot hits the ground.

 

[Arc-Lite]

flexability of the body trunk...is important, before you try anything make sure your able to move smoothly, and your limber.... exercise!!!! also I found, my hits were higher, when I fired off one foot, and then its practice...forget the tv shoot outs..and practice, you will notice when your foot is back, the muzzle will swing in that direction...work at close range, as your skill increases, increase the distances...and this is secondary....your primary focus should be...some big and heavy between you...and your target.

 

[RevDisk]

If you can fire accurately while moving, odds are the other person can get a bead on you. If you're shooting at targets for fun, moving slowly and accurately firing is fine. Generally, I lean into the weapon, keep the weapon higher than usual, tuck in the elbows, ignore the rear sight completely. If I'm firing from the standing for a prolonged period of time, I tilt my hips and put my elbow against my hip (sorta a monopod). Looks kinda goofy, but it's rock solid.

Under most circumstances, if someone is trying to shoot me, I bound from one place of cover to another while a buddy gives me firing cover. By myself, I'd only usually be firing to hold my position or retreat.

 

[yorec]

The guys who bring up the point that this is a bad practice when someone is shooting at you because it is too slow and you make an easy target are right. BUT that is not the purpose of practicing accurate fire while moving...

Moving in this fashion is appropriate when you "own" a situation. If someone's already shooting - you do NOT own it and need to get down or to cover... Examples of situations you should "own:" When approaching a victim or suspect who is aparently passive at the moment, you own the situation. When moving down a hallway or from one car to another in a parking lot and there is no immediate fire, you own those areas. Or when approaching a suspicious circumstance that you can see pretty well, but not well enough to establish there is no threat at all in the area, you at least own all that you can see...

The purpose of the firing while moving drill is to be able to engage threats that pop into such a scenario that you already "own." (Passive suspect draws a gun and fires while you are walking, or badguy pops up from behind a car before you reach that cover twenty yards away, or the badguy had a friend who arrived a little late to help his buddy that just lost a gun fight with you - but he did catch you backing away...) It is a rapid response to something that was not there when you entered the situation and your accurate response should come before "bounding" to cover since that bounding will get you shot too. You're still too slow to outrun that other armed threat if he's firing. Ya might as well be able to neutralize it. It may very well be that after a quick aimed shot your next move should be a rapid retreat to cover as the situation just became too hot to be in, but at least you got of that one (or two) aimed shots at the threat as it entered the picture and you started your bounding run!

Practicing movement is important to be able to do that.

 

[Duh_Bear]

I know it will sound retarded, but...marching band helped.

When I was in high school we learned how to march in all directions with our torsos facing forward, horns pointed at certain levels, keeping our upper bodies from bouncing up and down. When i started practicing movement for carbine matches, it all kinda came back to me.

 

[JamisJockey]

No offense, but what kind of physical shape are you in? Is your heart-rate spiking when you're moving?
This can have an adverse effect on your shooting, thats why I ask.

 

[Island Beretta]

should be easier to shoot the rifle whilst moving re: to a handgun, unless the weight or recoil of the rifle is bothering you... have you checked this out??

 

[Ivy Mike]

Just use a shotgun, then you don't have to aim.

 

[Island Beretta]

myth..

 

[YammyMonkey]

Why is it that shooting the handgun while moving away in one form or another is a pretty common tactic, but doing the same with a rifle is not? I understand that moving slowly makes you a better target, but why don't most people train to haul butt, then engage with the handgun as some are suggesting here with the rifle, especially since the rifle is a much superior weapon?

Just to clarify, I'm practicing this at ranges out to 25 yards. Much past that and I can definitely see the slow moving=target side. Close in though, I'd think you'd want to put a few rounds on target while moving to cover.

I'm in okay shape. Not an Ironman, but walking and holding the carbine doesn't raise the HR much.

I think the long gun shooting while moving is harder because you have the gun anchored to your upper body where as with the handguns, it's easier to allow them to "float" at arm's length and use your arms as shock absorbers so to speak.

Carbine weight and recoil (if you can say that word with an HBar AR) are not a problem, it's mostly that I can't keep the sights planted COM on the target like I can with the handguns.

 

[Jeff White]

You need to learn to shoot while moving in all directions. You never know when you may need to engage a target.

Jeff

 

[goalie]

If you move slowly enough to be accurate with your return fire, you're also moving slowly enough for the enemy to get a good, accurate shot at you. Forget all the "school talk" about how to move slowly and carefully - if there's incoming fire, get the @#$% out of the way, as fast as you can. If you want to put rounds downrange to frighten them and put them off their aim, that can be done, but it's also extremely risky (in legal terms) for a private citizen - we are responsible for each and every round we fire, and blind, unaimed fire like that is all too likely to hit something (or someone) uninvolved in the encounter. Guess who's going to land up in court (and possibly in jail) over that?

I'd much rather find decent cover and then return fire, making sure that every shot counts.

I have to agree wholeheartedly. I am admittedly not an extraordinarily brave person, (I became a nurse after I left the corps) but it is stupidity, NOT bravery, that induces one to do anything slowly when being shot at. Hopefully I will never be shot at again, but if I am, you can bet your ass I won't be taking any shuffling, slow babys steps. I'll save those for IDPA matches, where I have found that they work quite nicely, thank you very much.

 

[Kor]

My $.02:

- Practice the "Groucho Glide" at home, with an unloaded weapon. A LOT.

- Accept the fact that your sight picture WILL NOT be absolutely rock-solid-steady while you are moving, but try to keep the front sight in the upper chest area at least. For close-range targets, un-learn the slow, deliberate "surprise-break" trigger squeeze, and learn to "press" the trigger rapidly as you see your sights on the area where you want to place the shot.

- Consider buying an Airsoft gun or pellet gun for practice at home.

- Learn bullet trajectory at close ranges - from 0-25yds, the point of impact will actually be BELOW your point of aim, so aim about 2-3 inches higher than you normally would when engaging those close-range targets. From about 50-150yds, the point of impact will be above your point of aim, so hold a couple of inches low at those ranges. (This assumes a 200-yd zero.) You must try it for yourself before you will actually believe it, I didn't really grasp this until I shot at a bullseye target from 5 yds with my AR180B, and saw that when I aimed at the center, my shots struck the target at 6:00.