Shooting The Early S&W Guns - 38Spl

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mnrivrat

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I have a couple older S&W K frame revolvers, a Model 1899 and a Model 1902 .

Neither are in collector grade but they are both mechanicaly very good with solid lock up and good timing.

These are the first of the 38 Special chambered guns and I know well enough not to shoot them with +P ammo. My question are to those who shoot these older guns, and wether you have any problems with them using modern standard velocity and pressure loadings.

Mostly I shoot hand loads that are about of target load pressure, but for carry, or in other circumstance I would like to be able to shoot off the shelf standard ammunition without concern. I don't see a problem with that, but wanted to run it by those of you who have done it.
 
As you already know you need to be very careful with those revolvers, the cylinders are not heat treated. Good heat treating only came about after WWII from what I've read.

I have an older S&W revolver and I shoot low pressure reloads in it but if I were to carry factory ammo I would carry something like the standard pressure Federal Nyclad ammo. Most of the factory standard pressure .38 Special ammo on the market today does not push the pressure limits. Standard .38 Special ammo has a max pressure of 17,000 psi and I doubt the factory stuff comes near that pressure.
 
I thought the heat treated cylinders were a product of the 30s? Someone with the S&W book will be able to tell you that one. Any standard pressure ammunition will work in the old revolvers. As will the target stuff. The 158 grain bullet will be the bullet to which the sights are regulated.
 
I have a model 1905 second change.I shoot standard pressure 158lrn and wadcutters. The only problem is hitting the target with the tiny sights.
 
Heat treating began in 1919. Both Models predate heat treatment. Both predate the positive internal hammer block safety introduced during WWII and should be treated as 5 shooters, with the chamber under the hammer left empty. They should be safe to shoot with standard pressure lead only loads. That having been said, I'm book smart, not shooting smart on these older models and will defer to the knowledge of those who have shot them.
 
As has been pointed out, neither of the revolvers-in-question have heat-treated cylinders, but they should be safe to shoot with standard .38 Special ammunition.

However if something in the innards should break you may have a hard time finding replacement parts. Over time – from then to now – many parts were revised and all parts do not fit all revolvers.

A modest amount of shooting with lightly loaded cartridges shouldn’t hurt, but more then that might be asking for trouble. Also for possible defensive purposes I would pick a similar revolver made during or after 1945 that had a positive hammer block safety. The 6th round might or might not matter, but it’s best it be available.
 
Thanks to all for your input. It doesn't sound like many still shoot these old girls .

Heat treating began in 1919

That sounds about right with the Model 1905 - 4th change begining with serial # 316648 according to published data.

Also for possible defensive purposes I would pick a similar revolver made during or after 1945 that had a positive hammer block safety. The 6th round might or might not matter, but it’s best it be available.

I carry a modern Titanium revolver as my standard go to. My carry reference for the old ones is for nastalgia, and reverence to John Henry.

The Model 1899 was modified a long time ago (I bought it this way) to the Fitz special concept. Although I find nothing personaly apealing about the Fitz modifications, it just somehow begs for some fresh air.
 
I guess I should have said "proper heat treating" that can withstand the higher pressures associated with +P loads. I didn't mean there was no heat treating going on, I should have specified advanced heat treating and better metallurgy too. :eek:
 
I have a 1930 M&P. It's been carried a *lot* in its life - it was a police department gun, and has basically no finish left on the right side of the frame. Since I got it, I've carried it, my father has carried it, it lived under my sister's bed for a couple of years, and it still gets shot several times a year.

Last weekend, I took out my Model 13 and put half a box of my lead target loads through it. I think this weekend it will be the old lady's turn. She doesn't get anything too heavy, though.
 
Howdy

A couple of things.

First off, this is the only firearms forum where I have ever heard it stated that the old Hand Ejectors, made prior to the introduction of the current style of hammer block, introduced during WWII, should be only loaded with five rounds. That simply is not true.

Firearms manufacturers at the turn of the Century were acutely aware of the short comings of most of the old Single Action designs of the Nineteenth Century. Particularly the well deserved advice to never load one with a live round under the hammer.

Let's look at a few photos.

Here are the action parts to a Colt Single Action Army. Notice in particular how thin the upper tip of the trigger is. The tip of the trigger is called the sear, and it engages the various notches on the hammer to bring the hammer to the 'safety cock' position, half cock loading position, and full cock.


interiorparts02.jpg

In this next photo, I have included a couple of arrows. One arrow points to the sear, the other to the so called 'safety cock' notch on the hammer.

Notice how there are overhanging lips on the 'safety cock' position and the half cock position. The purpose of those lips is to trap the sear, so the trigger cannot be pulled when the hammer is in those positions. The so called 'safety cock' position pulls the hammer back about 1/8" so the firing pin will not contact a primer. The problem is the cross sections of the metal at these spots is so thin that a good blow to the hammer will either shear off the over hang of the notch, or shear the sear right off the trigger. This has been documented many times, and it is the reason one should never carry an old fashioned single action revolver with a live round under the hammer. Dropping the gun from waist height so that the hammer spur strikes the ground is almost assured to shear off something and discharge the weapon. Accidentally dropping a saddle stirrup onto the hammer of a holstered gun can have the same effect. The same with the old Three Screw Rugers. That is why Ruger went to the transfer bar design in the 1970s.

Unfortunately the design of a SAA prevents me from assembling the parts in the frame so their true relationship can be seen, without drilling some holes in the frame.


interiorpartswitharrows.jpg


So lets look at another classic single action revolver, with a side plate that can be removed to see the relationship of the parts.

This is a S&W 2nd Model Russian, made in 1875. The first photo shows the hammer all the way down as it would be after the revolver was fired. The sear can be seen resting against the hammer, ahead of the loading position notch.

hammerdown_zps22c3b804.jpg


The next photo shows the hammer back to the loading position. This position withdraws the firing pin from the immediate vicinity of the primers, and frees the cylinder to rotate for loading. The cross section of the parts here is slightly more robust than with the Colt, still I would not carry this revolver loaded with six rounds, a good blow to the hammer could still shear something off. I have seen plenty of old revolvers with broken off notches.

halfcock_zpsd66dbdee.jpg


Just to get the idea, here the hammer is at full cock.

fullcock_zps62374e72.jpg



OK. Let's jump forward about 25 years or so. As I said earlier, manufacturers of quality firearms were well aware of these shortcomings with some of the older designs. As they began moving into producing double action revolvers, the mechanisms were radically different. And this provided opportunity for improvement. Iver Johnson had a well known publicity campaign called 'Hammer the Hammer' with illustrations of a hammer striking the hammer of their revolvers. The idea was the gun would be safe fully loaded, with a live round under the hammer.



Let's look at the Smith and Wesson Model 1899. This model employed a spring activated rebounding hammer.

In the first photo I am holding the trigger back with my finger. This is the position of the mechanism when the revolver discharges. Notice the hammer has come to a hard stop against the frame. Notice the piece directly below the hammer. It is actually two pieces, the Rebound Lever and the Trigger Lever. The trigger spring can be seen trying to rock these parts up, but my finger is holding them back, keeping the spring compressed.

hammerdown_zps27aaa060.jpg



In the second photo I have released the trigger. The trigger spring has rocked the pair of parts slightly clockwise. The Trigger Lever has pivoted the trigger forward. But notice how the hump on the top of the Rebound Lever has rocked the hammer slightly back, pulling the firing pin away from any primers. That is the rebounding hammer design of the Model 1899.

hammeratrest_zps333beae8.jpg

The problem with this design was it depended on the trigger spring to keep the hammer back. Push hard enough on the hammer and the spring will be compressed, allowing the firing pin to protrude through the frame and contact a primer.

That's probably why this model was only made for three years. I would probably be reluctant to carry a Model 1899 fully loaded.





Now, let's look at a modern Smith.

Little bit of a joke on my part, this 38 M&P Model of 1905 2nd Change left the factory in July of 1908. Look at the part underneath the hammer. That is the Rebound Slide. The Rebound Slide has been a part of every Smith and Wesson made from 1902 until today. And the rebound slide is why they are safe to load with six rounds.

Notice the hump on the top of the slide. There is a very strong coil spring compressed inside the Rebound Slide. The spring is bearing against a pin in the frame. The spring pushes the Rebound Slide forward, which in turn pushes the trigger forward. But more importantly, when the Rebound Spring slides forward, the hump on top wedges itself under the bottom of the hammer, forcing it to rotate counterclockwise a small amount. We are not talking about a spring holding the hammer back here, as was the case with the Model 1899. That is a solid block of steel sliding against a large bearing surface of the frame, preventing the hammer from rotating all the way forward. It would take a heck of a blow to the hammer to break anything here. About the only way it can fail is if the blow is so severe it breaks or bends the stud the hammer rotates on. And that would take a lot of force. I have a whole bunch of revolvers of this vintage, both 38s and 44s, and I do not hesitate to load them with 6 rounds. You don't really think all the thousands of policemen who carried these revolvers up until WWII were loading them with only 5 rounds, do you?

38MampPmechanism_zps8ed50eb2.jpg



The shape of these parts has changed over time. This pair of photos of a 44 Hand Ejector 4th Model of 1950 shows the parts have changed a bit, but the function remains the same.

44handejector4thmodeltriggerback.jpg


The wedging action of the Rebound Slide is clear here. The spring in the Rebound Slide has pushed the slide forward and the hump at the top of the Rebound Slide has forced the hammer to rotate back slightly, removing the firing pin from contact with any primers. Although a spring is required to push the Rebound Slide forward, it is the geometrical relationship of the mating parts that forces the hammer back.

44handejector4thmodeltriggerforward.jpg



At some point S&W introduced their first hammer block. It was unlike the WWII version, it was a piece of spring steel pressed into the side plate. A wedge on the hand (pawl) would shove the hammer block sideways out of the way of the hammer as the pawl rose. This one is from a 38/44 Heavy Duty that shipped in 1930.

triggerandsideplatewitharrows.jpg

This photo shows the relationship of the parts.

reassembled02.jpg




Personally, I have always felt that the hammer blocks in Smith and Wesson revolvers are mere redundancies. It is the Rebound Slide that really keeps the firing pin away from a live primer under the hammer. Yes, I have heard the stories about the sailor killed when a Victory Model struck the deck of a destroyer. I have never seen any documentation to that story. While the accounts of accidental discharges with old fashioned single action revolvers have been well documented.

For reference, here is a photo of that same 44 HE with its modern hammer block in place. It would take a heck of a blow to the hammer to shear off anything so that hammer block actually came into play. Much more of a blow than would cause an old Single Action to fire.

44handejector4thmodelhammerblock.jpg


OK, time to get off the soap box.

S&W began heat treating cylinders at slightly different dates, depending on the model. On page 139 of the Third Edition of the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson it states that for the 38 M&P Model of 1905, 4th change, heat treating of cylinders started at about SN 316648, circa 1920. I might add that I have read the primary reason for heat treating cylinders at that time was not so much for strength, as it was to keep the bolt stop notches from being battered.

As for what is safe to shoot in these old revolvers, you can bet the police loads of their time were not light loads. I have not bought any 38 Sp factory ammo in years, but when I shoot my early 20th Century Smiths I do restrict them to mid-range loads.

And I do shoot them.
 
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Kudos Driftwood!

Excellent presentation. Wish there was a gun rag out there that would employ Old Fuff and Driftwood and give them a free hand. I might pay $10.00 a copy for that. They could even sell ad space to Burma-Shave and Studebaker!
 
First off, this is the only firearms forum where I have ever heard it stated that the old Hand Ejectors, made prior to the introduction of the current style of hammer block, introduced during WWII, should be only loaded with five rounds. That simply is not true.

The circumstances that led to Smith & Wesson’s adoption of a second hammer block system in addition to the hammer rebound is documented in infinite detail in U.S. Handguns of World War Two – The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers; by Charles W. Pate. (See Appendix F, pp. 333).

The matter was brought to the company’s attention on or about May 19th, 1944 when the U.S. Navy submitted a formal report detailing an incident when a S&W .38 Victory Model was dropped from the superstructure of a battleship, hit the hardwood deck below, discharged in spite of the two independent safeties employed (hammer rebound and hammer block), and a sailor was killed.

Subsequent tests by the Navy showed that they could duplicate the discharge using other K-frame .38 S&W Victory model revolvers.

The Navy demanded immediate corrective action, and S&W responded by changing to a new (for them) design positive hammer block that was largely adapted from one incorporated in Colt hand ejector revolvers starting in 1908, or possibly as early as 1905.

The rebound safety you illustrated (and exceptionally well I must say) is located at the bottom/front of the hammer (aka the “toe”) and if, when the hammer suffers a hard blow, the toe may be fractured or outright broken, the hammer can advance to the point where the hammer nose/firing pin can hit a primer. The later hammer block mentioned above, blocks the hammer just under the hammer nose and is less subject to breakage.

If one wants to carry or otherwise use one of the pre-1945 S&W revolvers that lack the latest hammer block system, with the chambers fully loaded, in a defensive context that’s their business. I will admit that during earlier years I have done so myself without any negative issues. The probability of an unintended discharge is slight, but far from impossible.

Considering the number of S&W revolvers that have been manufactured since 1945 I have not found it difficult to find any I desire that are not equipped with the positive hammer block. When shooting earlier models I simply load 5 and rest the hammer on the empty one. Works well with single action Colt’s too. ;)
 
Thanks Old Fuff.

I have certainly heard of that incident. However, as I stated, considerable force must be applied to the hammer to cause it to discharge. Like dropping the gun from the superstructure of a battleship to the deck below. Any idea how far it fell? Maybe 20 or 30 feet? Or more? I still say, if one were dropped from waist high this would not happen.

Here in the Land of the Pilgrims ALL handguns sold in the state are required to pass a drop test, among other things, before they can be legally sold. I believe the test involves dropping the gun onto a concrete floor from a height of 30 inches, so that the gun lands on its hammer. As far as single action revolvers are concerned, the only guns that will pass this test are Rugers. Dunno what would happen if one fell from 20 or 30 feet.

I too actually usually load old Smiths with only 5 rounds when at the range. Not that I am concerned about an accident, its just that my boxes of ammo have rows of five and that makes it easier to keep track of what I am doing. Of course, in Cowboy Action Shooting we always only load 5 with the hammer down on an empty, and just so they do not have an advantage this is required of Rugers too.

Someday maybe if I have a real junker of an old Smith I will have to try a drop test on it, using primed brass under the hammer.
 
Driftwood, I always enjoy your informative and exceptionally well illustrated posts. I don't know a whole lot about the inner workings of these guns, but your posts (and those of some others like the Old Fuff) go a long way to revealing the mystery.
 
Thanks to all for your input thus far. I have three old I frame and two K frame guns all built prior to 1910. (and a New Departure I have to shoot yet)

I have been shooting the I frame guns, but since the K frame ones are of recent purchase, and in a higher pressure cartridge I thought I would see who else was shooting these and if modern standard pressure cartridges give any problems. They are not to be used on a regular basis, but since I do expect to shoot them on more than just the 4th of July I wanted as much input as possible regarding their durability.

I love shooting the Old I frame guns in 32 S&W Long. Now I need to get out and see how those K frame guns do.
 
Don't have an I frame, but I do have a J frame in .32 S&W Long.
Fun cartridge to shoot. Accurate and cheap to load.
 
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