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shooting through a window

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by old lady new shooter, Dec 31, 2019.

  1. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    Both shots are aimed at the BG.

    The first shot is usually done with the .223 / 5.56. The bullet may fragment which is acceptable since it’s job is to break the glass.

    The second or kill shot if you will is aimed at the BG and the shot is fired immediately after the first one before the BG has a chance to realize what is happening and can react.

    The location of the hostages is always important. The ideal situation is the hostage(s) are not too close to the BG. A example is a bank robbery where all of the hostages are laying on floor and are several feet from the BG.

    The decision to shoot the BG should always be a last resort. There are
    several reasons why the order to shoot may be given. The BG starts killing the hostages, he refuses to talk with or stops talking to the negotiators, continuing to negotiate places the hostage(s) in more danger (for example a insulin dependent diabetic).

    I was offered a position on my department sniper team. Back then I could consistently put three rounds in a 1/2” group at 100 yards. The Team
    Commander was surprised when I turned the offer down as he knew I did a lot hunting. I explained to him my reason was if I flubbed a shot at a deer then all I have to do is track the wounded deer.

    However if I flubbed my shot on the BG then it is possible that he will kill the hostage(s) before the SWAT can enter the building / residence. I did not want that possibility hanging over my head.
     
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  2. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    NYPD authorized JHP ammunition???
     
  3. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    I am well aware of the theory, but you didn't say where the first bullet would go.
     
  4. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Our Tactical Unit trained to use a shotgun to take down the window.
     
  5. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    I worked for a state agency in NYC, but yes, NYPD also carried JHP. My agency mirrored what they carried, when they went to semi-autos, so did we. They had more choices though, it was Glocks only for us, with the NY++ 12lb. trigger.
     
  6. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Do you remember the name of the author? Amazon returns like 2000 choices...
     
  7. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Phaedrus/69 likes this.
  8. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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  9. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Thanks for the correct info... It's been many years since I loaned my copy out - and, of course, it never came back... I was shocked to find out how much a new copy was... Thank heavens there's lots of used copies starting at less than $8..... I did note on Amazon that they also have an updated version of the original.... As noted previously, this is not a book for the kiddies.
     
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  10. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I've ordered the book for the Kindle.
     
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  11. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I will not be doing traffic stops, or making arrests, or responding to 911 call , or clearing buildings, but I may wlll (and have) walked into robberies in pogress.

    From what I have read so far, thi book is a must for any LEO and good for the rest of us.
     
  12. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    You asked an excellent question, OLNS.

    From reading the posts so far, I think many people have focused on the issue of shooting through glass (of whatever type), but the fact is that shooting through ANYTHING introduces a load of variables which may alter a bullet's trajectory.

    Even the human body affects bullet trajectory.

    And some of those trajectory changes may, indeed, be counter intuitive.

    For example, when shooting through a sloped windshield from outside a vehicle, one would think that the bullet would naturally hit the target inside the vehicle above the point of aim, since the windshield is sloped in such a fashion as to make things bounce up, right?

    What ACTUALLY happens in testing is the bullet hits BELOW the point of aim in this instance.

    Conversely, when shooting through the windshield from the inside, the bullet hits the target ABOVE the point of aim, not below.

    And this isn't due to light refraction through the windshield glass, either...the bullet trajectory is, in fact, altered in a counterintuitive way when passing through a sloped glass windshield.

    For a given bullet, two major factors affect the trajectory through glass (and most other objects): bullet mass and the angle of incidence to the glass.

    Yes, bullet velocity, type of glass, bullet design, glass thickness and design, etc. also affect performance. But to make any study, you need to hold these variables to a minimum.

    If the angle of incidence for the bullet is perpendicular to the glass, then it's pretty much a straight up measure of the glass' ability to resist penetration, and minimal deflection will occur.

    Store windows use different types of glass: annealed, tempered, and laminated...and the thickness may vary depending on size, mounting, and design. Vehicles use two types: laminated for the windshield and tempered for the side and rear windows.

    So, while you can't necessarily say the glass is the same between a vehicle and a store, neither can you say they're necessarily different. Many variables exist because of this, which means we can't give an exact answer to your question
     
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  13. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Small, very important things to take away from Street Survival.... Why doorways are so terribly dangerous.... What common items in your environment actually protect you from incoming fire... Why high angle opponents have a very significant advantage you need to remember in an armed situation... The most common problems you'll face personally after being involved in a shooting situation -and those are just a few of the many things that I found memorable...

    For me - I'd already done almost six years on the street - before I ever got my copy of the book - and had already been in my one and only shooting situation (and spent months in and out of court over it..). Much more important for me than anything else was the chapter on afterburn - the kind of personal effects a shooting leaves you with.... I went through quite a few of the scenarios mentioned and very nearly quit the job because of it... To put it mildly I acted very impulsively after my shooting incident - significantly risked my personal safety and endangered my officers on more than one occasion before I was able to deal with all the stuff you go through. My agency at that time didn't have any procedures for assisting someone going through the aftermath of a traumatic incident at all... All of that would change over the years and I'm glad to say that years later when one (or more) of my officers were involved in deadly incidents I was able to be there for them - and make sure they had the support and assistance they needed... None of this is ever mentioned to the newly armed citizen that's only learned the basics of personal carry in public... Any shooting incident that you survive will leave serious issues for anyone involved -whether they were a shooter themselves or just a survivor...

    Way back then we'd never heard of PTSD or any of the other problems that can be life altering.... I found that book to be a really good starting point in my remaining years on the street - and I made a point of learning everything I could about the weapons I carried and the very real problems that come with them... I will always maintain though - that your tactics in a critical incident are far more important than the weapons(s) you have at hand...
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
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