marksman13
Member
It’s not crazy short (20” barrel), but my Springfield 2020 Waypoint is plenty light and plenty accurate.
Short Lightweight suppressed hunting rifle
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Gtscotty
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I'm a fan of short-ish light-ish suppressed hunting rifles. For deer 6.5 CM is a nicely balanced choice for short and light, not too much recoil, plenty of performance, good ammo quality and availability. Haven't had one, but I think an 18" 6mm CM would be pretty excellent as well, most short barrel velocity reports I've seen are more than enough for deer hunting.
Here are a few I've tinkered with.
.30-06 X-bolt, 18.5", Liberty Sovereign
.280 AI Kimber Hunter, 17", Nomad TI. (Sold this one)
6.5 CM Sig Cross, 18", Nomad 30 (was originally a .308 before I swapped barrels, also now wears a heavier Athlon Helos Btr 2-12 and a lighter Nomad TI, overall gained a few oz)
6.5 CM Kimber Montana, 20", Liberty Sovereign
Like you, I'm thinking about building another hunting rifle. I'm pretty sure I'll go with a Tikka for the locking bolt (one big thing the Cross is missing) and readily available prefits. Kind of thinking an 18" 300 WSM or a 20" 7mm PRC (once brass becomes available), but the rifle would be more elk focused since I have lots of options for deer already.
Here are a few I've tinkered with.
.30-06 X-bolt, 18.5", Liberty Sovereign
.280 AI Kimber Hunter, 17", Nomad TI. (Sold this one)
6.5 CM Sig Cross, 18", Nomad 30 (was originally a .308 before I swapped barrels, also now wears a heavier Athlon Helos Btr 2-12 and a lighter Nomad TI, overall gained a few oz)
6.5 CM Kimber Montana, 20", Liberty Sovereign
Like you, I'm thinking about building another hunting rifle. I'm pretty sure I'll go with a Tikka for the locking bolt (one big thing the Cross is missing) and readily available prefits. Kind of thinking an 18" 300 WSM or a 20" 7mm PRC (once brass becomes available), but the rifle would be more elk focused since I have lots of options for deer already.
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horsemen61
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I love the look of your setups @Gtscotty! I’ll probably more than likely end up with an Xbolt and have the barrel cut to 18” that 30-06 looks killer I’m also a Yuge 6.5 fan so I may just do a Creedmoor and be done those kimbers have caught my eye
MachIVshooter
Member
.30-06 does surprisingly well from relatively short barrels, doesn't lose as much velocity as one would expect.
I did a Susurrus integral build for a fellow on a Rem 700 .30-06, those barrels are cut to 18" with heavy porting starting at 14.5", so effective barrel length is around 15-16". That rifle still managed 2,600 FPS with 150 gr. loads.
Magnums are another story. The .300 win mag takes a big hit when you start chopping below about 22". At 16", it's basically gonna mimic a hot .30-06 load from the same barrel length, but with a lot more blast.
And on that note, buttoned up another integral 7mm-08 build last week. This one is on a Howa 1500, comes in at 8 lbs 12 ounces as pictured (empty mag):
greyling22
Member
I'm not sure there is a supersonic hearing safe load
MachIVshooter
Member
I invite you to come out and play with our demos if you're ever in the Denver area. We've got it covered with rifle caliber manual action host weapons and cans for them in .17 Rem, .22 Hornet, .223, .220 Swift, .243, .25-20, .25-35, .25-06, 7mm-08, .308, .300 win mag, .32-20, .350 rem mag, .375 RUM and .45-70.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I don't consider any supersonic load to be hearing safe, suppressed or not.
MachIVshooter
Member
Same invite extended. I will change your mind.
Yes, some manufacturers have propagated this. It's a convenient story to tell if you just can't build a decent rifle suppressor.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Has nothing to do with manufacturer's propaganda or the quality of the suppressor. The suppressor can't change the supersonic crack.
Doubt it, once someone makes up their mind that the supersonic crack isn't hearing safe you are gonna have trouble changing it with a demonstration.
MachIVshooter
Member
No, it cant. But unless you're standing ~15 feet in front of the muzzle and have the bullet passing within inches of your ear, there is significant attenuation.
As well, not all cracks are equal. A supersonic pistol round or something like .45-70 with a wide, blunt bullet doing 1,200-1,600 FPS or so has crack of much greater amplitude that occurs a lot closer to the muzzle than an aerodynamic small bore rifle bullet doing 2,500+ FPS. The sonic crack of 10mm Auto truncated cone bullets at 1,300 FPS hurts my ears no matter what can is used or the environment, but I can easily tolerate the 7mm-08 or .300 win mag on my outdoor range all day. I can perceive the crack down range, but it is not at an offensive level. High velocity rifle round sonic crack is another milliseconds long impulse noise that is typically going to be somewhere in the 120s at shooter's ear. Many air rifles are in that range, high powered PCP ones often well above it.
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greyling22
Member
If I am ever in the area I will certainly stop in. I have 2 cans you put cores in for me, and they are as quiet as anything else I have. That said, anything supersonic hurts my ears. Maybe we are arguing the difference between "safe" and "comfortable."
Even a supersonic 22lr fired through a dead air mask from a bolt action rifle hurts my ears. Ymmv.
As an aside, I love the internal threading you do on lever action rifles. My marlin 357 is possibly my favorite host, but it is uglier with can and threading.
MachIVshooter
Member
Any time, just let me know!
.22 LR supersonic is one that can be borderline. It's a small bullet, but it's still in that more blunt and slower category, so the shockwave propagates pretty close to the muzzle and hits you harder. If you have sensitive ears, yeah, it can be uncomfortable. It is bothersome to me if there's a reflective surface nearby, but OK in a wide open field. Some of the Hypervelocity rounds like CCI Stingers bother me regardless, though.
I can't tolerate supersonic 9mm, .38/.357, 10mm, .44, .45, etc. without ears. But none of the high velocity rifle rounds firing spitzer bullets bother me out in the open, including the .375 RUM. My .45-70 with 2,050 FPS 405 gr. loads is there, though. I can tolerate a few shots, but any quantity of shooting, yup, ears. And of course the port and piston pop of semi-autos is uncomfortable to painful always. Gas adjusted ARs I can do a few rounds, but like the .45-70, any volume of fire, I'm using ear pro. AKs, FALs, M1As, Mini 14s, etc. are all over 140 at ear and all painful to me.
gotboostvr
Member
How do you feel about 223 or 6.5G from a bolt action? Are they any quieter than say 7mm-08 from a similar gun? Is it a negligible difference?
I think there's a lot of cognitive bias that goes into perception. I think one thing that factors in is the drastic difference having a 22 go super is from one that doesn't. I was doing informal tests of what did and didn't crack in a 4 and 6" barrel. shooting mini mags from my 6" 1911 some did and some didn't, the ones that did seemed so much louder my initial though was "gees that's as loud as unsuppressed" but I know that's not even close to true.
It's amazing what velocity and bullet shape can do I shoot Remington 33gr Accu Tip 22 magnum thru an Optimus Micro and outdoors the crack seems way off downrange.
BreechFace
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I've noticed this as well, bullet shape and velocity seem to play a role in how it attenuates at the shooters ear.
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My experience the crack of pointy bullets above say 1500 fps is all about the same.
MachIVshooter
Member
To the ear, yeah, not much difference. The bigger bullets do make a bigger shockwave, but unless you go from something like .17 Rem to the .375 Ultra back to back, it's not really something you'll pick up on, and it's largely overshadowed to the ear by the difference in muzzle dB and tone. The difference in crack from .223 to .243 to 6.5 CM to 7mm-08 to .308 win is negligble.
At these higher levels (~120-140, 150 dBA), the human ear really isn't capable of picking up changes less than 3-5 dB, and that assumes very similar frequency. The tone can make a huge difference, lower frequencies perceived as quieter even though the intensity is actually a little higher. And lower frequencies are less damaging at any given level, they don't vibrate the cilia as rapidly. Those breaking off is what hearing damage is.
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Gordon
Member
I imagine if I was designing a hearing safe cartridge for an integrally suppressed rifle it wound be a 6mm-7mm with a twist fast enough to fully stabilize the new VLD bullets at all velocities from subsonic up to MachIV , it would have less powder capacity than the .308 case but enough to get desired bullet weight depending on caliber over 3000 FPS in a 20" or less barrel. The case should have a good strong head on it. The 6mm Dasher is about perfect if you can get by with 105 grain Berger VLD hunting bullets at close to 2900 fps with around 33 grains of powder. I would imagine the sonic crack starts pretty far (15-20 feet ?) from muzzle depending on how gases are released from the muzzle .
Gtscotty
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I like the X-bolt for sure, it's always been a good shooter, both before it was cut and after, and has a relatively long mag box. As @MachIVshooter said, the '06 actually does really well in shorter barrels, as does the 6.5 CM. The short '06 and short 6.5 actually have near identical trajectories, I'm shooting 190gr ABLRs and 142gr ABLRs out of them respectively, both running ~2,600 fps with Staball or RL16.
I actually took both on my cow hunt in my old stomping grounds in WY this fall, but wound up carrying the 6.5 Sig most of the time after my buddies scope gave up and I let him borrow the X-Bolt.
Twas a cold and windy day, lol.
I have a Bergara B14 Ridge in 6.5 Creedmoor with an 18" barrel. I like the rifle. My only complaint is that it's heavy since it has Bergara's No. 5 contour barrel on it. Once you add a suppressor on the end, it tends to get pretty front-heavy. (On my list of wants is a short, titanium suppressor like the TBAC Baby Beast to use predominantly for hunting.) Still, that rifle remains relatively handy and is a blast to shoot. I was spotting my own impacts on steel targets at 150 yards the other day. Recoil and muzzle blast are minimal with the suppressor on.
I am also considering buying a Howa 1500 mini or Ruger American Ranch in 6.5 Grendel for my girls to use as their first centerfire deer rifles when the time comes. I would pick the Grendel over other possible options because I already have one and therefore have components and dies on-hand already. You might find a 6mm ARC or 350 Legend or something else fits your preferences better in this niche.
I am also considering buying a Howa 1500 mini or Ruger American Ranch in 6.5 Grendel for my girls to use as their first centerfire deer rifles when the time comes. I would pick the Grendel over other possible options because I already have one and therefore have components and dies on-hand already. You might find a 6mm ARC or 350 Legend or something else fits your preferences better in this niche.
This is good info. Thanks for sharing.
md7
Member
Not sure if OP has made a selection. But I’ll add my two cents.
My buddy has a Bergara B14 Ridge in 308 with 18” barrel. He’s had it for a few years now, and killed several deer.
It’s short, accurate, has a great trigger, and is a good host for a suppressor. Now it’s not a feather weight. I’d say it’s around 9 lbs with optic and maybe 9.5 or 10 lbs with suppressor.
But I’ve seen him drill targets with that rifle out to 500 yards. And going from memory, I believe it’s got enough velocity to make an ethical kill shot on medium sized game to at least 400 yards. Assuming you’re skilled enough to do that and know your drops. I wouldn’t try it, but I believe the rifle is capable of it
My buddy has a Bergara B14 Ridge in 308 with 18” barrel. He’s had it for a few years now, and killed several deer.
It’s short, accurate, has a great trigger, and is a good host for a suppressor. Now it’s not a feather weight. I’d say it’s around 9 lbs with optic and maybe 9.5 or 10 lbs with suppressor.
But I’ve seen him drill targets with that rifle out to 500 yards. And going from memory, I believe it’s got enough velocity to make an ethical kill shot on medium sized game to at least 400 yards. Assuming you’re skilled enough to do that and know your drops. I wouldn’t try it, but I believe the rifle is capable of it
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