Shot a scoped Garand....un-natural and weird.

[hillbilly]

A couple of days ago, I had my first Garand experience.

A guy at the local gun club had one with a scope, and since I spotted his rounds and helped him re-zero the scope, he let me shoot it.

First, the gun was great. It was a Springfield receiver with a Douglas target barrel (30-06, not .308) with the original M-1D scope mount and Sightron mildot scope atop it.

The Garand did wear a black, synthetic stock that was very tight and did not feel "cheap" like some synthetic stocks feel.

It was a very good, well-done, tight Garand.

I loved the feel of the gun. I got a big kick out the bang-CLANG on the 8th round.

However, I now know why the M1-D sniper system was, at best, a clunky, almost unworklable stop-gap sniper rifle rushed into service in WWII.

The off-set scope required a cheekpiece that stuck waaaaay out the left of the buttstock.

That cheekpiece was required because the off-set scope mount (Garand loads from top, so the top of the reciever has to be cleared by the scope) felt like it stuck about four feet of the left side of the rifle.

Off the bench, it was nigh impossible to keep a consistent cheek weld. In fact, most of the time when I pulled the trigger, I had no cheek weld at all, because I had to push my head un-naturally forward and to the left just to get proper eye-relief on the scope.

It was just about the most un-natural and weird experience I've ever had shooting a scoped rifle.

So, I still need to get a Garand some day.

Only now I know for sure why the Garand just should not be scoped, at least not for practical, real use.

Scoped Garands are, in my opinion, sort of like chromed Lugers. They may be flashy and cool to have, but for real, actual use.....well....

hillbilly

 

[DMK]

Cool. Thanks for the range report. I always wondered what it was like to shoot the M1C and M1D.

 

[Jeff White]

The M1D was the Army's main sniper rifle until the M24 came online in 1989. The M21 was not a success and few of them remained in service.

I was issued an M1D in the 47th Infantry Division sniper school in October of 1988. There were only a few M21s available and the left handed shooters received them because you have to shoot the M1D right handed.

We had the original M84 telescopes on them. The optics on those old scopes were still clear, but you couldn't really adjust them because they were so old. Once you zeroed it was recommended that you used Kentucky windage and elevation as you might not be able to return to zero if you tried to adjust the reticle. I'm sure that that was because the M84s were so old and worn out.

I didn't find it uncomfortable or un-natural feeling to use the offset mount. I don't recall anyone complaining about it.

The only criticism I had of the system as the old M84s. The combination of M1D and M84 was accurate enough to make head shots at 600 meters if you did your part. No one had much trouble out to 800 meters.

Jeff

 

[Beetle Bailey]

I was issued an M1D in the 47th Infantry Division sniper school in October of 1988.

Wow! I had no idea they remained in service for so long.
Were the M1D's still in 30-06 or did they get rebarreled to .308?

 

[Jeff White]

The M1Ds were in 30-06. We had plenty of .30 match ammo for the course but none on enbloc clips. We single loaded every round we fired.

Jeff

 

[Clark]

I have a Garrand with a scope.
The mount is an S&K
The S&K official picture does not show this problem, but the right turret gets in the way of loading.
My scope is rotated 90 degrees to the left, with elevation on the left and windage on top.
The scope is a standard Leupold 3x9x50

 

[carebear]

With the cheek pad being so thick, can you get a good seat of the butt in your shoulder pocket? Seems like it would be out on the point of the shoulder if it moves over an inch or so?

Do you have just to adjust your head position to get the same shoulder position?

 

[Gewehr98]

That's interesting.

The M1D was the Army's main sniper rifle until the M24 came online in 1989. The M21 was not a success and few of them remained in service.

I've seen instances of 1903A4 snipers in service through Vietnam, in some cases the same M84 scopes on those 1903A4s ditched in favor of Weaver K4-60B and the like.

I guess it requires some diligent homework to figure out what was considered standard, substitute standard, and proper issue for a given unit.

I was never real comfortable with the offset mounts on either the M1C or M1D Garand rifles, myself. It's weird, because I've got a nice offset mount on a Remington Model 81, and it aligns nicely with the eye, but then the scope is just slightly left of bore axis for case ejection, not clip ejection.

Otherwise, I'd say the issued sniper Springfields, either the Marine Corps Unertl-scoped 1903A1 or Army's 1903A4, were ergonomically a better fit.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The M1D was the Army's main sniper rifle until the M24 came online in 1989. The M21 was not a success and few of them remained in service.

I was issued an M1D in the 47th Infantry Division sniper school in October of 1988. There were only a few M21s available and the left handed shooters received them because you have to shoot the M1D right handed.

Guard units sometimes were issued M1Ds, but the Active Army used the M21 with the Automatic Ranging Telescope (ART) extensively in Viet Nam and later.

 

[30Cal]

I've got an M1D, and yeah, it's a little odd. The cheekrest doesn't put my eye where I'd like it to be, at least not off the bench. I'll have to try it out prone sometime soon and I'll let you know if it's any better.

Ty

 

[Jeff White]

Vern Humphrey said;

Guard units sometimes were issued M1Ds, but the Active Army used the M21 with the Automatic Ranging Telescope (ART) extensively in Viet Nam and later.

Vern, regular Army units also fielded the M1D in large numbers until the M24 was fielded. 3d Armored Division and other units in Germany fielded the M1D through the 1980s. I believe some units in 3AD received some M21s in 83. I recall an article in Infantry magazine by the Chief of Infantry in 1989 about the opening of the DA Sniper School that stated the M1D was still widely fielded throughout the force, but that would change with the introduction of the M24. I'm off work tonight, I'll see if I can't find it.

The M21 was never a big success. They had a lot of trouble building them to meet minimum accuracy standards and maintaining them. Approximately 25 to 30 percent of each shipment received at Ft Benning from Rock Island Arsenal was rejected and had to be rebuilt by MTU armorers.

I know that XVIII Airborne Corps fielded M21s. I also know they weren't very happy with them. A 1986 article in Infantry Magazine on the 82d Airborne Sniper/Observer teams. Originally published in the March-April 1986 issue. It was written by CPT James W. Bowen who was assistant S-3 of 2-325 at the time.

The author had this to say about the M21:

Unfortunately, although the Army's current M21 sniper weapons system, which consists of an accurized M14 rifle with an ART-II scope and an M49 spotter scope, may be an acceptable general purpose system, as a sniper system it has a number of deficiencies. For example, a user cannot perform any maintenance on the system that requires disassembly of the rifle. Also, the scope cannot be taken off the rifle without loss of zero, and this makes it impractical for use by an airborne sniper-observer team.

(The 2d Battalion, 325th Infantry tested an alternate weapon, the McMillian M82, which is currently in use by selected units within the Department of Defense. The battalion found this an excellent weapon that increased the combat capabilities of it;s sniper-observer teams.)

Just like the M14, there were never enough M21s built to equip the entire Army. The M1D served in both AC and RC units until the M24 was fielded.

Jeff

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern Humphrey said;


Vern, regular Army units also fielded the M1D in large numbers until the M24 was fielded. 3d Armored Division and other units in Germany fielded the M1D through the 1980s. I believe some units in 3AD received some M21s in 83. I recall an article in Infantry magazine by the Chief of Infantry in 1989 about the opening of the DA Sniper School that stated the M1D was still widely fielded throughout the force, but that would change with the introduction of the M24. I'm off work tonight, I'll see if I can't find it.

The M21 was never a big success. They had a lot of trouble building them to meet minimum accuracy standards and maintaining them. Approximately 25 to 30 percent of each shipment received at Ft Benning from Rock Island Arsenal was rejected and had to be rebuilt by MTU armorers.

I know that XVIII Airborne Corps fielded M21s. I also know they weren't very happy with them. A 1986 article in Infantry Magazine on the 82d Airborne Sniper/Observer teams. Originally published in the March-April 1986 issue. It was written by CPT James W. Bowen who was assistant S-3 of 2-325 at the time.

The author had this to say about the M21:



Just like the M14, there were never enough M21s built to equip the entire Army. The M1D served in both AC and RC units until the M24 was fielded.

Jeff

In the 2nd Infantry Division we had M21s in '80 and '81 when I was there. The Division Chief of Staff, Colonel Walt Bickston "loaned" his .338 Mag to the sniper platoon -- and the MTU did some magic with it, sent it back and when Walt left the Division, he had one sweet-shooting .338.

 

[Khornet]

This lefty

found firing the M1D not much of a problem. Didn't need a pad. Ocular of scope points out over the left of the reciever, which is where my eye goes.

 

[peoria46]

In the 2nd Infantry Division we had M21s in '80 and '81 when I was there. p

We had M21's in 1/38 at Hovey (at least during 82-85)--and they were deployed constantly during each infantry battalion's annual DMZ mission. It seems unlikely that 2ID would use an inferior weapons system if another was available and demonstrably better. That division just didn't screw around--it didn't "play Army"--too close to the bad guys. Also had them at 5th Group in the late 70's/early 80's. I always thought that it was the standard Sniper weapon in so much as no one ever mentioned any other.

 

[Deles136]

When you had to defend your country with a Garand there was no problem using it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

We had M21's in 1/38 at Hovey (at least during 82-85)--and they were deployed constantly during each infantry battalion's annual DMZ mission. It seems unlikely that 2ID would use an inferior weapons system if another was available and demonstrably better. That division just didn't screw around--it didn't "play Army"--too close to the bad guys. Also had them at 5th Group in the late 70's/early 80's. I always thought that it was the standard Sniper weapon in so much as no one ever mentioned any other.

I never saw an M1D used as a sniper weapon in any unit I served with -- always the M21.