Shotgun Design Question

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PRCalDude

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I've looked around, and as near as I can tell, 12 ga buckshot loads and slugs build up no more than 15,000 psi, which is less than 9mm. Is this, in fact, the case? If so, why can't simple blowback or delayed blowback be used for semi-auto shotgun actions instead of the rotating-bolt, gas-piston found in most nowadays (Benelli inertia-driven excluded)?
 
There are several recoil operated autoloading shotguns already. In fact, I think that John Browning invented the Auto 5 (which is recoil operated) about 100 years ago. Most of the other recoil operated guns are very similar in design to the Auto 5.

So why don't we have MORE recoil operated autoloaders? I suppose it's because most people feel that the gas autoloaders are more versatile in handling a variety of loads without having to change settings on a friction ring. Also, with the Auto 5, the entire barrel recoils rearward with the bolt assembly. This can be a bit disconcerting to someone not used to it. Personally, I like the gas autos better, and I think that most shotgun shooters agree with me on that.
 
Recoil operation usually means that the barrel travels rearward a certain distance with the bolt after firing before the bolt and barrel de-couple.

Blowback is where the bolt is simply resting up against the barrel with nothing locking it there.

I'm familiar with the A-5. It has a much more complicated action than what I'm asking about here.
 
The problem is multi-fold. The 12ga boltface has much more cross-section than something like the 9mm so that 15000psi pressure is pushing against more area causing much more rearward force on the bolt. Second, the shotgun pushes a lot heavier load, causing a stronger rearward recoil impulse against the bolt. Third, the projectile spends more time in the shotgun barrel due to its relatively slower acceleration time which would cause the bolt to start opening while the chamber pressure is really high. A blowback gun could be built, but it would have a heavy bolt, a heavy recoil spring, and would be tempermental about ammo due to the wide variations in shotshell velocity and weight. A blowback .410 would probably be a bit feasible though due to the smaller crossection and limitations in loadings
 
Thanks!

Would some sort of delayed blowback (like the KRISS) gun be feasible? The KRISS certainly has an interesting way of managing the action of the bolt.

Can the rotating bolt assembly (rotating bolt and barrel ext) be machined simply with a mill, or is a lathe required as well?
 
Chamber pressure has nothing to do with recoil operation of a guns action other than with high pressure cartridges you need some delay to allow the pressure to drop before opening the action.

The 9mm has a SAAMI maximum working pressure of 35,000 psi for standard loads and 38,500 psi for +P loads. Shotguns chamber pressure generally operate in the 9,000 to 11,000 psi.

The recoil of shotguns in themselves is heavier than a 9mm handgun as recoil is a function of mass x velocity. Shotgun 438gr (1oz shot) x 1,200 fps = 525,000 vrs 9mm 115gr x 1,300 fps = 149,500, so a 1 oz light shotshell load is about 3.5 times the recoil of a hot 9mm. Good thing a shotgun usually out weighs a handgun.

You will find that for the most part all shotshells have the pretty much the same pressures and same velocities (1,200 to 1,350fps) be they bird or buck standard or magnum. The magnum loads have more recoil because they throw more shot, keep the velocity equal and double the projectiles weight and you double the recoil. The difference in this recoil is why a recoil operated shotgun like the A-5 must be adjusted for heavier loads when they are used while self metering gas guns can use a variety of loads without manual adjustment.

If you fire a Browing A-5 from the hip without the butt of the gun firm against your body you will get a failure to feed as the rocking of the gun will absorb enough recoil that the action will not work properly. Do the same with a Remington 1100 (gas operated) and it will cycle just fine as the action is mostly indepedant of recoil.
 
Very Interesting

So the recoil issue is primarily one of momentum transfer, not force?

You're point about the A-5 is very interesting. Some shotgun instructors teach a recoil-management technique that specifically proscribes pressing the stock firmly into your shoulder. I guess a recoil operated gun wouldn't cycle then.


Are gas guns self-metered simply because the size of the gas port allows the same amount of gas in, regardless of load, or for some other reason?
 
I guess a recoil operated gun wouldn't cycle then.
Not at all.
Browning A-5's work well with a firm shoulder mount.
They also work well without one.
They just work well no matter what you do, as long as the friction rings are adjusted properly!

That trait made them the most widely manufactured design semi-auto shotgun in history. Fn, FN/Browning, Remington, Savage, and others have made them through the years. Several million in fact.

Most Gas guns are self-metering due to gas relief ports in the design.
They are allowed to bleed off any excess gas pressure beyond that needed to operate the gun.

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Not too similar

The benelli inertia system uses a stiff spring attached between the actual bolt body and bolt carrier so that the recoil compresses the spring, camming the bolt body in the barrel extension, and allowing it to release from the barrel. The recoil then carries the entire bolt assembly rearward. I think.
 
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