Shotgun or Muzzleloader for deer?

[bernie]

Most of my deer hunting takes place in a zone that allows either a muzzleloader (I use a Remington with sabots) or a shotgun shooting slugs. The terrain allows for about a 200 yard shot max, and temp can range from 70 to 15 degrees. My question is would the muzzleloader or a rifled slug barrel provide a better hunting arm. Also, would the slug barrel roughly duplicate the trajectory of a 16" barrel .44 magnum lever gun? Thanks.

 

[smokemaker]

If you are proficient at muzzleloading ( more than just the trigger squeezin') then go ahead and go for it. I haven't carried a shotty in the field in 3 years, save one lousy day when my dad talked me into taking his 1100 out. I lost a chance at a shot that day, because I was unfamiliar with the gun. I hadn't shot it in years.

The reason I ask if you are proficient is not a personal doubt on you. So please take no offense. I just know alot of hunters who took up frontstuffin' to extend the hunting season. These guys didn't take the time to take care of their guns the right way. These inlines look, for the most part, like cartridge guns, and the hunters expected them to function like cartridge guns, too. They almost all used two pyrodex pellets and whatever the guy behind the counter at the gunshop said would kill deer wherever you hit 'em. (And we all know how smart gunshop counter folk are, don't we?) It's funny how 6" 50 yard groups from a smoothbore deer barrel on a shotgun can make 4" 50 yard groups out of a muzzleloader look good to some. They about crapped when they saw me shoot 1 1/2 inch groups out of my Omega... at 100 yards... with an large aperature sight.

If you are going to take the ML instead of a shotty, realize that ML's aren't magical deer slayers all by themselves. It takes a dedicated individual to make the most of a muzzleloader's ability, and to know the drawbacks. 200 yards can be reached with a modern .45 or .50 caliber gun, but it takes lots of practice to do it regularly. 200 yards is a long ways, even for a 30-06. Know where you're gun prints at 50 to 200 yards, in 25 yard increments. Write it down and tape it to your stock so you have it to reference for those long shots. Play with loads, find one that shines.
One shot- one kill!

 

[bernie]

I am a muzzleloader guy. I have a Remington 700 ML I got when they came out and it is kept insanely clean. I am well versed with how it shoots and am a regular shooter with it, as well as with other rifles. It performs well for me. Being something of a gear hound, I was wondering if a rifled bore 12 gauge shooting sabot slugs could match the performance and give me a second shot if needed.

 

[sm]

I suck at Muzzleloading. I can count on my fingers and toes the # of times I have even fired a BP firearm ...and most of that was a BP shotgun.

[ Gary is gonna change me and Dr. Rob ain't helping with Pics of his Pedersoli SG ]

I can do shotguns, I have "put a few" rds downrange with a SG. Gimmee a SG and slugs.

 

[Matt G]

Stalk or sit?

 

[bernie]

Primarily stand hunting, occasionally getting down for a "walkabout".

 

[Matt G]

From a sit, I think I'd be more inclined to go with the muzzle-loader, assuming it gives greater accuracy. When stalking, I'd probably prefer a shotgun, unless I was in open country.

 

[ID_shooting]

I have always wondered what could be done with a 20 inch rifled barrel on a 12 ga with a 3.5 inch chamber. How accurate could it handloading slugs and tuning the charge to the gun.

 

[mete]

A good slug and a rifled barrel can get 1" groups at 100 yds.

 

[smokemaker]

Got to agree there. I've see two different Browning Gold's that can keep up with the best muzzleloaders, and one Rem 1100 with an old Hastings rifled barrel that can best some centerfire guns. My own Ithaca 87 with the 1:34 rifled barrel has always been iffy though. 3" at 75 yards is the best I could do. Muzzleloading is in part about overcoming the handicaps placed on the hunter by the gun.

 

[Matt G]

A good slug and a rifled barrel can get 1" groups at 100 yds.

Um. . .

Er...

Ah...

Not... really.

Are there shotguns out there that can do it? I hear tell there are. I've never seen 'em. But I've done enough testing with slugs through shotguns to know that you're not going to get 1 MOA groups out of your basic repeater by just slapping a rifled slug barrel on it and trying out a premium load. If so, every man with an 870 would have a potential hair-splittin' rifle on his hands, for the mere $120 [usually less]!

Most shotguns simply don't have the triggers and lockup to give that kind of accuracy. Then there's the bedding. Then there's the mating of shell to shotgun. Then there's the sighting system (my shotgun has some screw-on Brownell's rib sights-- I'll never see 1 MOA with those!).

I think most of the supposed "1 MOA shotguns" are bolt-actions that are simply .71 cal rifles.

 

[joshlm]

I'll give my .02 cents as well. I have a .45 cal. cva mag hunter that I use for deer. It is an in-line and I have a variable 3-9x scope mouinted on the gun. I am confident at ranges out to 200 yards with the gun if a really good shot presents it's self. I have actually used the gun for deer out to about 150 yards. The biggest thing for me was practice and load development. The pre measured powder pellets just do not seem to be accurate for me. I think because I am not able to regulate the powder charge as close. 120 grains of pyrodex is my max load even though the gun is capable of 150 grains. Anything above 120 and I can't hit anything with the gun. I am happy with the gun for what I use it for and I have less than $300 in it.

 

[smokemaker]

OK, I'll give you that all three accurate shotguns I mentioned earlier did get trigger jobs, and that my Ithaca, that doesn't shoot so great, has not had a trigger job. That gun has a 12 pound trigger. But the two Brownings and the 1100 are otherwise unaltered. The Brownings both have 1:28 barrels and cantilever scope mounts. Both wear Nikon Monarch optics. The 1100 has an old (first year rifled barrels were offered by Hastings, I believe) 1:35 Hastings barrel with scope mounts on the barrel. It wears a 1.5X Burris extended eye relief scope. And as for the bolt action slug guns, I shot a buddie's Savage 210F, and was not impressed. It's a clunky goose gun with a rifled barrel.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Under the conditions I hunt, either will do well if I hold up my end.

Best work with my 870(Peep, trigger job, rifle choke tube) and best slug runs about 4" ETE at 100 yards for three shot group averages.

With my TC High Plains Sporter, using a Buffalo bullet and 80 grains of 3F, make that 3 1/4" or so average at the same distance.

Since my shots average about 32 yards, with the longest about 65 in the last decade, either will give a humane and quick death if I insert the projectile correctly.

Blood trails are a bit shorter with that huge .73" hole. All fall within 100 yards, most within 50.

Use what you want to. If you take only acceptable shots and no Hail Mary dreck, you'll not get any flak from me....

 

[smokemaker]

With all the talk of super accurate shotguns and such, I think we should remember that practical hunting accuracy is a good bit more than MOA. I think Ross Siefred says if you can hit a pie plate at 100 yards, you're in business. Not that everything Ross Siefred says is gospel.

 

[Matt G]

Absolutely. Any range at which you can hit a 10 pie plate (I actually use cheap paper plates) is an appropriate hunting range. In truth, I typically reduce the range in the field a bit. With iron sights on my 1100, I can consistantly hit a paper plate from field positions 5 out of 5 times at 80 yards. In the field, I reduce it to about 70 yards. (I once passed up a shot at some deer in a shotgun or muzzle loader-only hunt because they were 90 yards away. That was hard to do, but I won't sacrifice my hunter ethics. What I did do was try to stalk them. I nearly made it.)

I absolutely believe that there are shotguns out there that can consistently turn in 2.5" groups or better. Shoot, that's FINE hunting accuracy! I've no problem fielding a rifle that will only hold 4" at a hundred yards (and I've killed deer with one)-- the main issue in the field is not the rifle, but the hunter. There are even some shotguns out there that can occasionally break the 2 MOA mark. But let's not gild the lilly with remarks of 1" groups being possible by just putting a slug barrel and quality slugs to a shotgun; I've seen too many brand new quality namebrand bolt action centerfire rifles that can't do that.

 

[smokemaker]

I think very rarely does one find a super accurate gun out of the box. After I'd owned my Omega for 6 months, if you would have asked me, I'd of told you that it was a 3" gun at 75 yards. It took hundreds of rounds, 6 different bullet weights and styles, and at least 6 different powder charges to get to where I'm at now. I've had a .58 Firehawk for over a year now that still doesn't shoot well enough to take hunting. I haven't given up yet, though. Making 'em shoot is part of the fun. Honestly, my .54 GPR is the only gun I've got that shot great out of the box. That includes the centerfire and rimfire cartridge guns.