Should I get rid of it?

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rc109a

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I bought last year a Savage 16 in 308 with the detachable muzzle break. I could not get the rifle to shoot anything less then 3" at 100yds (3rnd groups). After much deliberation I decided to send the rifle back to Savage. I plan on using this rifle to hunt with mainly, so the rounds I used were all set for that goal.

I got a call today saying my rifle is being shipped out and nothing is wrong. They stated that they got a 1.3" group off a fixed rest with indoor range conditions using 168g Hornady TAP ammunition. They said this group was acceptable. I asked if they could try with hunting rounds and they said they did not do that.

Now I have tried switching scopes (3 different types and models), several manufactured ammunition, and numerous reloads in an attempt to get this rifle to group less then 3". If I shot more then 3 rounds the groups would spread out beyond 4"-5". I have had others shoot the rifle with even worse results. They are sending the rifle back with the target.

Should I keep messing with it or just get rid of it? I am thinking I should have went with my first impulse and bought the Tikka, but everyone swears up and down about the Savage.
 
Even if you do find some way to improve the accuracy on that rifle, you've already got a bad taste with it. From here on, any little thing you don't like with it will turn into a major deal with you. At least that's how it always goes for me. Cut your aggravation short, and just sell it and get something else.
 
The beauty of the Savage platform is the ease of changing barrels, using a barrel wrench and a headspace gauge. Get a quality aftermarket replacement barrel in 7mm-08 and sell the 308 barrel. You'll be much happier and the final costs will be minimal.


NCsmitty
 
While the 7mm-08 is a great caliber, I not much into starting another caliber right yet. I have way too much money invested in 308 to ditch it. I looked at changing the barrels. If I go to a heavier barrel the stock would need to be replaced (factory), so this swap would run well over $350 (and that is a very cheap estimate for SS barrel, stock, tools, gauges, etc).
 
What type of rifle rest are you using? I get far better groups out of a lead sled than sandbags with some rifles (Like .75" rather than 1.5").
 
Detachable brake and they shot it indoors... I wonder if they fired it with the brake removed?

Variables abound. New shooter
New ammo
Possibly without brake

I'd shoot it a bit and have it shot by others with the ammo they used first and on a lark, I'd blast it a bit without the brake too.

In any case, I'd check it before throwing in the towel or making major changes as they may have addressed an issue or two which they are not admitting to for whatever reason - headspace, brake mounting, crown... Whatever.
 
If I shot more then 3 rounds the groups would spread out beyond 4"-5"
If you're gonna hunt, then why would it matter? Guys get all torqued up about five shot groups. I'm not gonna shoot a deer five times.

If you're still looking for a remedy, free float the barrel. If it walks after shooting three or four shots, I'd suspect the barrel is pushing on the stock. It's a free fix if it hasn't been done already.

Or if it has, I'd go the other direction. Put a business card or two or three in the barrel channel until the stock pushes the barrel. Move the cards until you see an improvement.
 
Let's see... a 3" group means your bullet may land 1.5" from the point of aim at 100 yards. Yeah, you'd better just throw that rifle away!

I'm sure ten people will jump in to call me a heretic, but as far as I'm concerned benchrest accuracy is about the least important aspect in a hunting rifle. What matters is how you shoot the rifle standing on your hind legs shooting offhand. Can you stand up and hit a pie plate at 200 yards? Can you stand up and hit something the size of a clay pigeon at 200 yards?

If you can do those things, you have a damned fine rifle. There are plenty of sub-MOA benchrest rifles that are stocked too long or too short for the shooter, or have a scope mounted too high, or too far forward (or back) or are in some other way awkward to shoot offhand. And that my friend, is a bad rifle that needs to be fixed or dumped no matter how well it groups off the bench.

By all means, bench your rifle to zero it. Then stand up and shoot the damned thing to see how it actually shoots in the real world.

A deers heart/lung zone is a foot wide and a foot high. You don't have to put the round in its eye socket.
 
Just how good a shot are you, realistically? How much practice have you had with the rifle? Have you tried other brands of ammo? I have killed many deer with my 308 carbine that will shoot no better than 4 inches at 100 yards. chris3
 
i have to second what kodiakbeer said! but if you wana get rid of the gun i would take the worthless thing of your hands
 
Kodiak: It has nothing to do about bench-rest accuracy (that is not why I got the gun, but it is always nice), but will the gun be consistent. I know the gun will do its part, then the rest is on me to do mine. I do spend a lot of time at first shooting from the bench or prone position when I am working up a load and zeroing. I want to take as many of the variables out of the equation and make sure that the rounds are where they should be. I guess I could just throw some pieces together and if they hit within 10" that is close enough, but that is not the point. What I am trying to do is work up a consistent load and that is difficult to do when the rifle is not consistent.

Matt 7mm: I never have said this rifle is a piece of trash, nor have I slammed Savage. They have been nothing but nice and helpful.

As far as the 3" group landing 1.5 inches away from the point of aim, that might be true if the group was hitting in the same spot consistently. Unfortunately that is some of the better groups. I have had some rounds land over 5" from point of aim (then the next few fall within 3" of that first shot. Then when you make scope adjustments the group shifts again. I have had two other shooters try it and the rounds landed all over the place (factory ammo) there just does not appear to be any constant groups. Yes, I have tried three different scopes, 5 different types of factory ammo, 4 different types of brass, 4 different types of bullets, 3 different types of powders, and various combinations of charges.

I have only been shooting rifles for approx 28 years (since I was 18) so maybe the lack of shooting experience may be the issue. I shoot most of the time from the kneeling, sitting, and prone positions. The majority of game I have shot have been from these positions. I do shoot from the standing position when I have too, but the other positions are more stable for longer shots. I try and avoid the standing shot when possible because I know my limitations.

This rifle only seen 150 rounds. My other 308's have only 650 and 1020 rounds through them (Remington 5R Milspec, Remington SPS).

BALL3006: If your rifle will only shoot 4" at 100 yards, what will it do at 200? That seems like a large margin for error if your shooting smaller game. I do a lot of groundhog hunting before deer season to get ready and those targets are a lot smaller...lol
 
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I had the same issue with a 270. It was a $600 gun in 2008. In the meantime I bought two economy guns, sub-$300, one 270 and one 30-06. Both of the economy guns would out shoot what was to be my "ace". I could have pillared and bedded it in hopes that it would help, but that isn't free, and what if it didn't help. I went back to my LGS and they made an offer for a trade on anything and I traded for less than what it would have cost for bedding and pillars. I traded for the same gun in a different caliber and it is now my best shooter. I also sent mine back to the manufacturer and they had to pump the highest price ammo down it to get it to their specs. I lost sleep wondering why a $600 gun couldn't shoot as well as a couple sub $300 dollar guns.

I'd vote to shop it out for the best trade deal you can find, you could trade for its identical twin and get exactly what you desire. It sounds like you're going to have some cash to lay down no matter what you do.
 
I have been working on a similar situation with a Weatherby,though not quite as bad. You may want to ask Savage if they shot the rifle,or just the barrelled action.Point of impact moving around like you stated sounds mechanical to me. Maybe bedding,loose scope mounts,or a too long base screw contacting the bolt.You didn't say if you shot without the brake,if not,surely you should give that a try.You may want to try another stock,if you have a buddy with a Savage,you could swap it for a day at the range. I feel your pain,as I bought a ,257Wby thinking I now had a long range deer /coyote rifle.Hasn't worked out that way yet,but I'm not giving up on it.Good luck and please post your efforts and results.
 
rc109a,
Did the barrel have a copper fouling problem? You may need to lap the barrel.
I had a barrel problem with a 25/06,and it took a little elbow grease to work the problem out,but now the rifle shoots 1/4"-1/2" groups all day long.The bore was just rough with tooling marks.
If your rifle has the Accustock,the action bolts have to be torqued correctly or it will give you problems with accuracy.Make sure the barrel is free floated.

I'd bet that whatever the problem is,it's an easy fix.I wouldn't just give up on it.

What bullet weights have you tried shooting out of it? I have a Savage 10FCP and a 12FLV,and they shoot completely different.It could be as simple as changing your loads up.
 
When you sent your gun back, did they say at what range the gun was tested? When mine went back, their specs were 50 yards. If yours was 1.3 at 50 yards, that's not impressive by today's expectations and standards.

If you work with this gun, I would start with by having it re-crowned. I'm assuming you've made sure everything else is tight. You could also unfloat the barrel with some pressure, only to see if the groups tighten.
 
Thanks for all the great information! The action has been torqued down correctly. I even had Savage walk me through it step by step during our initial trouble shooting phase. I never really looked down the bore to see if I could identify tooling issues. I have cleaned the rifle several times with Sweets, so I hope that is not the issue since this stuff seems strong enough to remove the copper off the pennies in your pocket while cleaning your rifle.

I have shot 150, 155, 165, and 168's. I guess I am just being too picky, but like I stated before I enjoy getting the best out of a gun. If this is the best, then maybe someone else will enjoy it. I have considered a re-barrel as well as a new stock. I know several people who want the gun for the action and a few who only shoot once or twice a year that feels that it shoot good enough for hunting. If I decide to sell it I am not going to sell it to someone who does not know its history. Once again thanks for the advice.
 
Here is something you can check also, I have seen this on several Savages that were having accuracy problems . This may or may not help but its something to check. I have a model 11 that went from a 3MOA group to a 3/4 MOA by doing this adustment. I would also think about recrowning that barrel before dumping it. If crowning and lapping don't do it, I would just swap out the barrel. Hope you can understand my quick sketch attached. Edit: in my haste, I meant to say the recoil lug is a larger diameter than the reciever. You can feel the difference in the heigth buy scraping your fingernail across the reciever to the recoil lug. It can be .010 above the reciever and that causes the front scope base to rock under recoil.
 
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just a crazy thought...

Youtube your concerns with this rifle....the publicity may induce some movement by sending the link to Savage.

Frankly, I do not think it is right to buy a new rifle then pay for repairs to have it shoot decently....if anything it should have better groups as the barrel breaks in...
 
If I have to shoot at a deer at 200 yards, I use a rifle set up for that range, my Finn M39 or a Rem 700, or my M1D. My 308 carbine is for short range hunting. Groundhogs? I use my custom 243 for them. I believe for the proper tool for the application. I might add, the 4 inch groups is from offhand, not the bench. After all, it is a hunting rifle....chris3
 
Ball3006: I agree, my 308 is for ranges beyond 100yrds. Shots at 100 or less are done usually with a Winchester 30-30 or my 41mag. This rifle was going to be for those shots over 200 yards. I am planning on giving my son the 5R and my daughter the SPS here in the next few weeks.

Skyshot: I will take a look at that when the gun comes back. Good point though.

ClickClickD'oh: Never really considered the TAP round to be an effective hunting cartridge for larger game. I have read that it is not designed for that intended purpose and neither is it recommended (maybe I am wrong, but then again I am a reloader and that defeats that purpose as well). I can see it in the SD/HD role(we use it at work).

I would have looked at the crown, but with the muzzle-break on tighter then I could remove it. They are returning the gun with it removed so I can inspect it.
 
Never really considered the TAP round to be an effective hunting cartridge for larger game. I have read that it is not designed for that intended purpose and neither is it recommended (maybe I am wrong, but then again I am a reloader and that defeats that purpose as well). I can see it in the SD/HD role(we use it at work).

What size game are you talking about? If you are thinking about taking deer with it, the 168gr TAP will more than do the job.
 
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