Should we enslave certain people as the 13th Amendment allows?

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dischord

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After the Civil War, the federal government and pro-Union states carved out an exception to the 13th Amendment, preserving for themselves -- to this day -- the power to enslave people (as punishment for crime).

While I harbor no delusion that a government actually could use this power given today's politics, the power nonetheless is there.

So as a purely theoretical civil-rights question:

Should those convicted of murder become slaves for life? Should the government give such enslaved criminals to the victims' families? Or rather, should the government retain control, while giving percentages of the slave-labor profits to victims' families?

Should buying and selling of such slaves be allowed?

Which crimes merit enslavement? What about temporary enslavement?


13th Amendment, Section 1 (my emphasis): Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as punishment for crime wherof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist withing the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
 
I fully support the government's right to form road gangs or other forced labor tasks for prisoners. I do not think they should even get token compensation. That would make them at least indentured servants. But only for the duration of their sentence, not for life. To me, all citizen rights should be restored after the sentence is served.

There is no "buying or selling" of people involved. It is a very small way of repaying society for their crimes and probably does not equal the cost of their incarceration.
 
No theory here. This is already common practice via the euphamism 'prison industries'. You'd be surprised how high the percentage of our GDP is prison-made. Prison industries are very compeditive with Indonesia and Red China. :rolleyes:
 
ACI makes license plates, doors , windows, mattressess, skylights, etc. BUT - they are paid actual minimum wage. Our kitchen workers, barbers, shoeshine, porters, etc, get from $.10 an hour to $.35 an hour. The drunks, excuse me, the DUI guys at the private prisons get about $.75 an hour for various things.
 
Prison wages...

I think that they should get a certain minimum recompensation. Why? Because you can't really force them to work, and even $20 a week is better than nothing. It gives them something to do, which is better than them sitting on their asses. Also, at least in some cases, if they learn a trade, they can get a job on the outside world.


Don't they actually make federal minimum, but then have food/board deducted?
 
Gladiators!....No just kidding. No slaves.
I believe prison life should reflect real life. True you can not force people to work, but those who choose to work could earn credits that they could spend to make their prison life nicer. For instance earn enough credits and rent a single cell have more choices and better food. Those who choose not to work can live 3 to a cell and eat the prison gruel. Prison should try to mirror life on the outside.
Off topic perhaps.
 
Yes, we can force work - it's called hard labor, even though it works out to be a lot lighter than you think. We classify Hard Labor as cleaning the pods, or working in the prison garden. This is non-compensated work, and the only thing they get is a shower. Some people think this is harsh - don't go to prison, and it won't be a problem.
 
I'm aware of prison labor, but I was thinking of something slightly different. Perhaps it is just semantics, but there is a difference between a prisoner who is forced to work but still is "his own man" and a slave who is legal property.

To me, the idea of being an actual slave is more dehumanizing than being a prisoner, even if both are forced to work. The emotional blow would be greater to hear a judge say, "You are now a slave for 40 years" than to hear him say, "You are sentenced to 40 years uncompensated labor."

It would be interesting to know the attitudes of Ante Bellum chain gains towards slaves. Was it: "I may be forced to work like a slave, but at least I'm not an actual slave"?

(Oh, and FWIW, I'm not actually advocating slavery as punishment -- I'm simply exploring ideas.)
 
No, we shouldn't. There is a fundamental difference between a slave and a prisoner. Prisoners retain some of their civil rights and are legally considered to be human beings. Slaves are property. Objects. Completely dehumanized and they have no rights. They can be bought, sold, abused, neglected, or killed by their owners and that is all perfectly o.k. We do not need to set that precedent, or rather re-set it, in this country.
 
13th Amendment, Section 1: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as punishment for crime wherof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist withing the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Click to expand...

"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We *want* them broken. You'd better get it straight That it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."
- Ayn Rand, _Atlas Shrugged , Ch. III, "White Blackmail" (Dr. Ferris)
Click to expand...

:scrutiny:
 
No need to bother with reading Atlas Shrugged unless you are fond of short-story worthy plots bloated into epic-length novels through the addition of reams of pointless exposition and description. The two or three noteworthy passages get quoted here at THR constantly.
 
Gubment already enslaves people on a very frequent basis, in fact, I'm due to be enslaved for at least 1 day in August- it's called Jury Duty.

It's the only direct tax on your labor (other than being drafted- which you still are paid reasonably for) that exists, to my knowledge, without you having commited a crime.

It's anachronistic and needs to be remedied. If I wasn't going to lose hundreds of dollars per day being bored off my ass, I wouldn't mind.
 
One minor historical observation. From the dawn of recorded history chattel slavery has meant that the body of the slave is owned by the slaveowner. This means all of the slave's mortal body, so slaves have classically been used as sex toys from time immemorial.

Remember Tony Curtis' scenes which were cut from "Spartacus"? Remember the scenes which weren't cut from "Gadiator"? Remember the fuss over Thomas Jefferson's black family?

I really don't think that America is ready for prisoners to be sold as slaves.

I have GOT to read that book!
Click to expand...
If you get a used copy it will be cheaper than a prescription of Ambien! Damn thing is more boring than trying to read Pilgrim's Progress.
 
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