Sight in
- Thread starter KY DAN
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entropy
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For maximum accuracy, you'd remove the grips and place it in a Ransom rest to remove the human variable. But seriously, most use a barrel rest. I always set a guns's sights to mechanical zero first, then sight in from there.
ApacheCoTodd
member
First, I pick what I intend my standard load to be. Of course, caliber and cost may necessitate starting with budget or lesser-recoiling round initially.
Then, 18 rounds or three cylinders at 15 feet to familiarize and bring the groups down BEFORE I lift a screw driver.
Then, incrementally moving out to what I consider to be my expected distance - at least a full cylinder for each adjustment and I only EVER adjust either windage or elevation with each adjustment and never both.
When I think I've got it done, I set it aside and shoot some long guns ( .22, .308... whatever) and then later return to it and confirm.
Todd
Then, 18 rounds or three cylinders at 15 feet to familiarize and bring the groups down BEFORE I lift a screw driver.
Then, incrementally moving out to what I consider to be my expected distance - at least a full cylinder for each adjustment and I only EVER adjust either windage or elevation with each adjustment and never both.
When I think I've got it done, I set it aside and shoot some long guns ( .22, .308... whatever) and then later return to it and confirm.
Todd
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
When I sight in a new revolver, any brand, I always like to remove the human element. This means I will sight it in from a rest. There are those who disagree with this, claiming that any handgun will shoot differently when fired from a rest than it will when hand held. They are right of course a gun shot from a rest will tend to recoil differently than one held free hand. Don't forget, the muzzle starts to rise in recoil before the bullet leaves the muzzle, so the amount of recoil will affect the point of impact. Despite this I always sight in a new handgun, revolver, semi-auto, or even a single shot from a rest, because I want to see what the gun itself is capable of doing, not how well I can hold steady while pulling the trigger.
When sighting in I always shoot single action. Even with a double action revolver since all my 'precision' shooting, whatever that is, is done single action. For what it's worth, my favorite revolver targets are empty soup cans set on the 25 yard berm. They jump real good when you hit them just right.
I always sight in a new revolver from a sitting position. The key here is to be comfortable. It does not help with accuracy to be hunched over and squinting to see the sights. If you are sitting comfortably and can see the sights without craning your neck or taking any other unnatural position, the results will be better. Most will tell you to rest the barrel on the rest, I actually prefer to rest the butt of the handgun on the rest. I keep a couple of sandbags in my trunk and plop a sandbag down onto what ever I am using for a rest, usually the tool box that lives in my trunk.
It is a mistake to do your initial sighting in too far away. Set your targets close initially. Bring plenty of targets. I will staple two or three targets to the target backer, so I don't have to walk up and change targets too often. I always bring a pair of binoculars too, so with my poor eyesight I don't have to walk up to see how I did. After you shoot a few groups close up, you can always set the targets back further. Like I said, bring plenty of targets. I usually start around 15 or 20 feet away. I can always move the targets back later. Make sure your targets are big enough that all your rounds will hit the paper, no matter how far away you are. When I sight in a rifle at the 100 yard berm I use huge targets, or else a big fresh piece of paper stapled behind the target, so I can see where any errant bullets went. If you can't see all your bullet holes, you won't accomplish anything.
Back to the pistol. Decide what type of hold you want, and where you want to place your sight picture. The sight picture I like best is with the front sight centered in the rear sight, with the top of the front sight level with the top of the rear sight. This is easy with any modern S&W revolver with adjustable sights. With fixed sights it can be a bit more problematic, especially with the narrow V groove of some old single action revolvers. But with any S&W, fixed sight or adjustable sights, it is easy to do.
This is the fixed rear sight on a S&W Model 10.
This is the adjustable rear sight on a S&W Model 17. Note: the blade is a bit off center in the body of the sight. More on that in a bit.
.
Anyway, I line up my sight picture so the front sight blade is centered in the opening of the rear sight, and the tops of both are level with each other.
Next, you have to decide where on the target to place your sight picture. I often like to use what is called a Six O'Clock hold. This means I place my sight picture on the bottom of the round black bullseye, at the Six O'Clock position. Note: right now we are going to see where the revolver actually prints, relative to where we have placed the sight picture. We are not going to reach for the screw driver for a while. The reason I like the Six O'Clock hold is there is plenty of white target for me to clearly see the outline of the sights on the target. Those with better eyesight than me, which is most of the population, may prefer to place their sight picture right on the center of the target. I don't do so because I loose the dark sights against the dark of the target. If you have some of those bright orange stick on circles and stick them right in the center of the target, that can help with sight visibility.
OK, now we are finally ready to shoot. I always shoot five shot groups when sighting in, mostly because most ammo boxes group the ammo in rows of five. Now you have your revolver resting on your sandbag. You have cocked the hammer. Place your sight picture where you want it on the target. Gently squeeze the trigger until the revolver fires. Do not yank the trigger. Do not pull it expecting to know when it will fire. Just squeeze gently, keeping your sight picture steady until the gun fires.
DO NOT LOOK AT WHERE THE BULLET WENT!
Cock the hammer and fire another shot the same way you did the first, with your sight picture placed exactly where you had it for the first shot. Repeat until the cylinder is empty.
Now you can get out your binoculars and see how you (or actually the revolver) did.
Where is your group centered in relation to where you placed your sight picture. If it is high or low, or left or right, that can be adjusted later by adjusting the rear sight. You can't do that with fixed sights. Unless you want to file the sights, which I do not recommend, you are stuck using Kentucky windage and elevation to place your shots where you want them wth fixed sights. No sweat, shooters have done so for hundereds of years.
Also, how big is your group? That tells you how accurate your revolver actually is. Not where the group wound up, but how big the group is.
I like to shoot at least three targets at the first sit down at the first distance. Remember I said to bring lots of targets? Only one group per target so you don't get confused.
Now I suggest you fire three more groups at whatever distance you expect to normally be shooting the revolver.
After you have fired three groups at that distance, you can finally get out the screwdriver and start adjusting. Move the rear sight in the direction you want your group to move. Move it left if you want the group to move left, and vice versa. Raise the rear sight if you want to raise the group and vice versa. Do not move the rear sight a whole lot. Do it in easy increments so you can get an idea of how far the group will move at your distance with your ammunition. Modern S&W revolvers have click adjustable rear sights, so you can reference how far your group moves in relation to how many clicks you move the sight.
Getting back to that off center rear sight on my Model 17: The proper way to pull the trigger of any handgun is with the soft part of your trigger finger directly under the nail. It feels more natural to place the trigger in the crease of the first joint. That is the wrong way to pull a trigger. Pulling the trigger with it placed in the crease will tend to push your shots to the side. Pulling the trigger with the tip of your finger will have less tendency to push your shots. Why is the sight on my Model 17 to one side? Because I tend to push my shots to the left. The sight is pushed a little bit to the right to compensate. If you have bought a used revolver you may notice the rear sight is already pushed to one side. I buy lots of used revolvers, and with almost every one the rear sight has been pushed to the right to compensate for bad trigger technique. For instance when I shoot Cowboy with fixed sight single action revolvers I always hold a little bit to the right because I know I am going to be pushing my shots a little bit to the left. Yes, you can file down the front sight on a single action revolver to 'regulate' it. I did that exactly once. Years ago. Now I don't bother, I know where the gun is going to shoot, and I compensate for it by where I hold on the target. With CAS we are shooting big steel targets and accuracy does not count, as long as we hit the target.
Do bring a camera (or your phone) and document what you have done. I always try to write distance and the caliber on my targets, to document what I have done. Notice I was shooting to the right with both groups with this Model 1955 Target. I should have written down what the ammo was. Apparently it was American Eagle brand 45 ACP. Clearly with these targets I was not holding at Six O'Clock, I was holding in the center of the orange circle. I was satisfied with these groups and did not adjust the rear sight to center the groups. I was probably running out of daylight.
With this antique New Model Number Three I was probably holding at 6 O'Clock. Yes, that is a flyer, I must have yanked the trigger on that one. Yes, I should have written down the distance, it most certainly was not 25 yards.
With this antique Remington Model 1875 I was happy all the bullets hit the target, pointy end first and were somewhere on the paper. This model was well known to have oversized chamber throats for 44-40 bullets, and they were also known to throw tumbling bullets. They were not precision target pistols. Yes, the targets were only 15 feet away and I was shooting from a rest. If I had started further away some of the shots would have probably missed the paper and I would have had no idea where they actually went. That is why I always start off close in.
This is what a target looks like that has been hit by tumbling bullets. I never could get this Lee Enfield to shoot worth a darn, every thing I tried in it key holed. I eventually sold it.
This day I just wanted to see which of these 38s was the most accurate. I was shooting American Eagle 158 grain Lead Round Nosed 38 Specials. I was looking to see which revolver was the most accurate off the bench, I was not looking to adjust anything. Clearly the Model 14 won hands down.
Just one more photo. This is from back in 2012. I had just purchased this antique 2nd Model Russian. I wanted to see what it could do with my Black Powder ammo. The target at the left was shot from a rest, the other one was not. Not too shabby for a pistol made in 1875. No adjustable sights, so I was not going to mess with adjusting anything.
When I sight in a new revolver, any brand, I always like to remove the human element. This means I will sight it in from a rest. There are those who disagree with this, claiming that any handgun will shoot differently when fired from a rest than it will when hand held. They are right of course a gun shot from a rest will tend to recoil differently than one held free hand. Don't forget, the muzzle starts to rise in recoil before the bullet leaves the muzzle, so the amount of recoil will affect the point of impact. Despite this I always sight in a new handgun, revolver, semi-auto, or even a single shot from a rest, because I want to see what the gun itself is capable of doing, not how well I can hold steady while pulling the trigger.
When sighting in I always shoot single action. Even with a double action revolver since all my 'precision' shooting, whatever that is, is done single action. For what it's worth, my favorite revolver targets are empty soup cans set on the 25 yard berm. They jump real good when you hit them just right.
I always sight in a new revolver from a sitting position. The key here is to be comfortable. It does not help with accuracy to be hunched over and squinting to see the sights. If you are sitting comfortably and can see the sights without craning your neck or taking any other unnatural position, the results will be better. Most will tell you to rest the barrel on the rest, I actually prefer to rest the butt of the handgun on the rest. I keep a couple of sandbags in my trunk and plop a sandbag down onto what ever I am using for a rest, usually the tool box that lives in my trunk.
It is a mistake to do your initial sighting in too far away. Set your targets close initially. Bring plenty of targets. I will staple two or three targets to the target backer, so I don't have to walk up and change targets too often. I always bring a pair of binoculars too, so with my poor eyesight I don't have to walk up to see how I did. After you shoot a few groups close up, you can always set the targets back further. Like I said, bring plenty of targets. I usually start around 15 or 20 feet away. I can always move the targets back later. Make sure your targets are big enough that all your rounds will hit the paper, no matter how far away you are. When I sight in a rifle at the 100 yard berm I use huge targets, or else a big fresh piece of paper stapled behind the target, so I can see where any errant bullets went. If you can't see all your bullet holes, you won't accomplish anything.
Back to the pistol. Decide what type of hold you want, and where you want to place your sight picture. The sight picture I like best is with the front sight centered in the rear sight, with the top of the front sight level with the top of the rear sight. This is easy with any modern S&W revolver with adjustable sights. With fixed sights it can be a bit more problematic, especially with the narrow V groove of some old single action revolvers. But with any S&W, fixed sight or adjustable sights, it is easy to do.
This is the fixed rear sight on a S&W Model 10.
This is the adjustable rear sight on a S&W Model 17. Note: the blade is a bit off center in the body of the sight. More on that in a bit.
.
Anyway, I line up my sight picture so the front sight blade is centered in the opening of the rear sight, and the tops of both are level with each other.
Next, you have to decide where on the target to place your sight picture. I often like to use what is called a Six O'Clock hold. This means I place my sight picture on the bottom of the round black bullseye, at the Six O'Clock position. Note: right now we are going to see where the revolver actually prints, relative to where we have placed the sight picture. We are not going to reach for the screw driver for a while. The reason I like the Six O'Clock hold is there is plenty of white target for me to clearly see the outline of the sights on the target. Those with better eyesight than me, which is most of the population, may prefer to place their sight picture right on the center of the target. I don't do so because I loose the dark sights against the dark of the target. If you have some of those bright orange stick on circles and stick them right in the center of the target, that can help with sight visibility.
OK, now we are finally ready to shoot. I always shoot five shot groups when sighting in, mostly because most ammo boxes group the ammo in rows of five. Now you have your revolver resting on your sandbag. You have cocked the hammer. Place your sight picture where you want it on the target. Gently squeeze the trigger until the revolver fires. Do not yank the trigger. Do not pull it expecting to know when it will fire. Just squeeze gently, keeping your sight picture steady until the gun fires.
DO NOT LOOK AT WHERE THE BULLET WENT!
Cock the hammer and fire another shot the same way you did the first, with your sight picture placed exactly where you had it for the first shot. Repeat until the cylinder is empty.
Now you can get out your binoculars and see how you (or actually the revolver) did.
Where is your group centered in relation to where you placed your sight picture. If it is high or low, or left or right, that can be adjusted later by adjusting the rear sight. You can't do that with fixed sights. Unless you want to file the sights, which I do not recommend, you are stuck using Kentucky windage and elevation to place your shots where you want them wth fixed sights. No sweat, shooters have done so for hundereds of years.
Also, how big is your group? That tells you how accurate your revolver actually is. Not where the group wound up, but how big the group is.
I like to shoot at least three targets at the first sit down at the first distance. Remember I said to bring lots of targets? Only one group per target so you don't get confused.
Now I suggest you fire three more groups at whatever distance you expect to normally be shooting the revolver.
After you have fired three groups at that distance, you can finally get out the screwdriver and start adjusting. Move the rear sight in the direction you want your group to move. Move it left if you want the group to move left, and vice versa. Raise the rear sight if you want to raise the group and vice versa. Do not move the rear sight a whole lot. Do it in easy increments so you can get an idea of how far the group will move at your distance with your ammunition. Modern S&W revolvers have click adjustable rear sights, so you can reference how far your group moves in relation to how many clicks you move the sight.
Getting back to that off center rear sight on my Model 17: The proper way to pull the trigger of any handgun is with the soft part of your trigger finger directly under the nail. It feels more natural to place the trigger in the crease of the first joint. That is the wrong way to pull a trigger. Pulling the trigger with it placed in the crease will tend to push your shots to the side. Pulling the trigger with the tip of your finger will have less tendency to push your shots. Why is the sight on my Model 17 to one side? Because I tend to push my shots to the left. The sight is pushed a little bit to the right to compensate. If you have bought a used revolver you may notice the rear sight is already pushed to one side. I buy lots of used revolvers, and with almost every one the rear sight has been pushed to the right to compensate for bad trigger technique. For instance when I shoot Cowboy with fixed sight single action revolvers I always hold a little bit to the right because I know I am going to be pushing my shots a little bit to the left. Yes, you can file down the front sight on a single action revolver to 'regulate' it. I did that exactly once. Years ago. Now I don't bother, I know where the gun is going to shoot, and I compensate for it by where I hold on the target. With CAS we are shooting big steel targets and accuracy does not count, as long as we hit the target.
Do bring a camera (or your phone) and document what you have done. I always try to write distance and the caliber on my targets, to document what I have done. Notice I was shooting to the right with both groups with this Model 1955 Target. I should have written down what the ammo was. Apparently it was American Eagle brand 45 ACP. Clearly with these targets I was not holding at Six O'Clock, I was holding in the center of the orange circle. I was satisfied with these groups and did not adjust the rear sight to center the groups. I was probably running out of daylight.
With this antique New Model Number Three I was probably holding at 6 O'Clock. Yes, that is a flyer, I must have yanked the trigger on that one. Yes, I should have written down the distance, it most certainly was not 25 yards.
With this antique Remington Model 1875 I was happy all the bullets hit the target, pointy end first and were somewhere on the paper. This model was well known to have oversized chamber throats for 44-40 bullets, and they were also known to throw tumbling bullets. They were not precision target pistols. Yes, the targets were only 15 feet away and I was shooting from a rest. If I had started further away some of the shots would have probably missed the paper and I would have had no idea where they actually went. That is why I always start off close in.
This is what a target looks like that has been hit by tumbling bullets. I never could get this Lee Enfield to shoot worth a darn, every thing I tried in it key holed. I eventually sold it.
This day I just wanted to see which of these 38s was the most accurate. I was shooting American Eagle 158 grain Lead Round Nosed 38 Specials. I was looking to see which revolver was the most accurate off the bench, I was not looking to adjust anything. Clearly the Model 14 won hands down.
Just one more photo. This is from back in 2012. I had just purchased this antique 2nd Model Russian. I wanted to see what it could do with my Black Powder ammo. The target at the left was shot from a rest, the other one was not. Not too shabby for a pistol made in 1875. No adjustable sights, so I was not going to mess with adjusting anything.
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A rule of thumb to remember is that you really can't make an adjustment smaller than your group size.
Start close to where you can shoot a < 1" group....say 5-7 yards...and get your group centered before confirming your zero at 10, 15, and 20 yards. Beyond that, you'll likely need a rest to maintain a < 2" group. Only adjust windage and elevation separately. I like to get windage adjusted before I address elevation.
You don't need to start with the load you intend to eventually use. You can start with a lower recoiling load to get your sights zeroed. Once zeroed, switching ammo should only be an elevation change
Start close to where you can shoot a < 1" group....say 5-7 yards...and get your group centered before confirming your zero at 10, 15, and 20 yards. Beyond that, you'll likely need a rest to maintain a < 2" group. Only adjust windage and elevation separately. I like to get windage adjusted before I address elevation.
You don't need to start with the load you intend to eventually use. You can start with a lower recoiling load to get your sights zeroed. Once zeroed, switching ammo should only be an elevation change
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