Smith & Wesson Warning On "Plus P" +P Ammunition

[pendennis]

The following is quoted directly from a Smith & Wesson owner's manual printed in 1993:

Revolvers in which .38 Special +P ammunition can be used:

• J frames - Models 60-4 (full underlug barrel only), 60-7, 60-8, 640, 649-2
• K frames - Models 10, 13, 14, 15, 19, 64, 65, 66, 67
• L frames - Models 581, 586, 681, 686
• N frames - Models 27, 28, 627

Here is S&W's warning about +P ammunition -

"Plus P" (+P) ammunition generates pressures significantly in excess of the pressures associated with standard .38 Special ammunition. Such Pressures may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into many revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS.

"Plus P" (+P) ammunition should not be used in medium (K frame) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. Such pre-1958 medium (K frame) revolvers can be identified by the absence of a Model Number stamped inside the yoke cut of the frame (i.e. the area of the frame exposed when the cylinder is in the open position).

The "Plus-P-Plus" (+P+) marking on ammunition merely designates that it exceed established industry standards, but the designation does not represent defined pessure limits and therefore such ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated. "Plus-P-Plus" (+P+) ammunition is not recommended for use in Smith & Wesson firearms.

 

[Drail]

The whole +P thing is marketing garbage. Standard pressure loadings are more than sufficient.

 

[Guillermo]

what Drail said.

the "+P" of today is about the same as regular pressure used to be.

Marketing hype for the adlepatted

 

[243winxb]

The S&W 337 PD in 38 special +P has a warning, no lead. The bullet may jump crimp in the 10 oz revolver. Jacketed +P only.

 

[Jim K]

At first, +P .38 Special was loaded to a higher pressure level than standard .38 Special loads. Enough problems cropped up that S&W and other makers issued warnings. After that, the pressure was reduced (but not the "hype"). AFAIK, the current +P load runs about 18.5 k compared to the 17k of the standard .38 special, not much of a difference, but enough that +P is not totally "hype". I loaded many hundreds of .38 Special a lot hotter than the current +P, and fired them in my old pre-Model 36 Chiefs Special with no problems.

.38 Special +P+, on the other hand, has never had a SAAMI standard because it was never intended for release to the public. But I have a box of Winchester .38 Special +P+ that is marked to be used only in revolvers chambered and marked for the .357 Magnum.
The intent was to give police .357 power while allowing the political suits to claim that the police were not using those evil Magnums, only the old .38 Special they had used for decades.

Jim

 

[Deaf Smith]

My S&W 642 is ok with SOME +p ammo (but then it ain't fun shooting hot stuff in that airweight anyway.) Same for my old 640 made in .38 Spl.

And most of my other wheelguns are .357s, even my 640-1 and 60, so I'm fine with +p or +p+.

Also my M10, made in 53, I don't even shoot!

Deaf

 

[SaxonPig]

That statement was written by their lawyers. Like every corporation they are terrified of lawsuits.

Here is my 1942 M&P pictured with some of the 500 rounds of +P and 600 rounds of +P+ I fired through it for fun. S&W lawyers would have a fit. The engineers would laugh at the notion of +P concerning anyone with a Smith 38.

Again, +P is a 125 at 925. How is this a powerful load? It's a cream puff. Barely a good target load IMO.

 

[roaddog28]

That statement was written by their lawyers. Like every corporation they are terrified of lawsuits.

Here is my 1942 M&P pictured with some of the 500 rounds of +P and 600 rounds of +P+ I fired through it for fun. S&W lawyers would have a fit. The engineers would laugh at the notion of +P concerning anyone with a Smith 38.

Again, +P is a 125 at 925. How is this a powerful load? It's a cream puff. Barely a good target load IMO.

+1 on Saxons statement. The +P thing is hype. fifteen to twenty years ago standard 38 special ammo was running at about 850 FPS out of a 4 inch barrel. Todays so called +P ammo is only running 850 to 900 FPS.
There is only one round that I would call +P now That is Buffalo Bores +P LSWCHP. The reported velocity is right a 1100 or better form a 4 inch revolver.
Again, Saxon is right about the lawyers getting involved and making a lot of money.
Howard

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I have to agree. The 38 special has been wimped over the last 30 to 50 years. When I started loading 5 grns of Unique with a 158 was standard and gave velocities of 980 odd fps out of a 5" gun. Today this is above +p in most manuals. Only Lasercast lists it a standard load and they quote 976 FPS for a 158 (interesting isn't it).

I have a little diamondback 38 that has seen over 45,000 rounds of 5 grns of Unique as it was my standard for decades. Yes it has had to be repaired but come on, the average is only one trip to colt for every decade of use and 15,000 rounds. Maybe if I had loaded a wimp load of 4.2 grns of unique it might have gone less often, but I still believe that it would have needed a trip to colt eventually.

To me almost all of the 357/8 caliber rounds have taken one step down in the power level. Thus a 38+p today is equal to a normal 38 special of say 3 decades ago.

Your mileage may vary and your experience may be different than mine.

 

[Guillermo]

Saxon Pig has spoken on the issue.

Case closed.

He is a smart guy with tons of experience on the subject.