So what’s up with the guys in New Jersey?
- Thread starter jono
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If someone has hi caps in NJ, they probably aren't going to talk about it nor their plan.
kmw1954
Member
Wife and I were just talking about this and exactly what does it mean for people that are transient thru the state to another location? Are they exposed to arrest?
FWIW, Colorado had a problem in that magazines are not dated and thus proving a new hi-cap purchase was illegal (mag leggers bringing them into the state for example) would be impossible. A court could very well rule that this is a taking and requires either compensation or grandfathering these high caps. Courts are more solid on the 5th than the 2nd.
AlexanderA
Member
You don't have a 5th Amendment "taking" as long as there's the possibility of storing them outside the state. I don't believe that a 5th Amendment compensation case would become ripe until the ban legislation was on the federal level.
A federal bump stock ban could fulfill the requirements for such a case.
A federal bump stock ban could fulfill the requirements for such a case.
Labguy47
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Now I really must admit that I feel bad for those who stay under draconian rules. But what makes one continue to stay? I would move to friendlier country like Florida or the central states. I would not give my taxes to someone who doesn’t represent me. Personally I would have to leave. Wait! I did just that not to long ago!
That's the thing, this isn't within reason.
At some point a line in the sand must be drawn or else they'll just boil us like frogs (turning the temperature up a degree at a time until we're cooked and then have us for lunch).
So the courts say, because you can "modify" magazines to comply it's not actually "taking".
So if one puts a spacer under the follower to limit the mag to 10 rounds, even though it was built as a 30 rounder, it would be legal?
Which ammo do they use to test it with? What if I only have .458Socom rifles?
What about bolt action rifles that use AR-15 or AR-10 pattern mags? Are their magazines exempt?
I know the law was primarily about semi-autos, but what about a Henry lever action in .357 which holds 10 rounds of .357 but 12 rounds of .38SC?
Problem is who wants to be the first to be charged with a crime so they can become the test case in court?
So if one puts a spacer under the follower to limit the mag to 10 rounds, even though it was built as a 30 rounder, it would be legal?
Which ammo do they use to test it with? What if I only have .458Socom rifles?
What about bolt action rifles that use AR-15 or AR-10 pattern mags? Are their magazines exempt?
I know the law was primarily about semi-autos, but what about a Henry lever action in .357 which holds 10 rounds of .357 but 12 rounds of .38SC?
Problem is who wants to be the first to be charged with a crime so they can become the test case in court?
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Tommygunn
Member
Who says they don't?
Trey Veston
Member
That point has come and gone decades ago.
Americans are spineless drones for the bidding of the government.
You have no basic freedoms, no right to privacy, and no constitutional protection. Haven't for decades.
The French are having massive national riots over increased gas taxes. They freaking stormed the presidential palace.
The French!
If you even began to try to organize something like that here, the government will detect the chatter and you will be arrested.
You're told that you need to vote to preserve your freedoms. Please... This past election was rife with fraud with 120% voter participation in some areas. And no one cared.
America has become a sad joke. The water has been boiling for years and it's far too late.
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Zaydok Allen
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Just a reality check type comment. I've seen many comments over the years about people needing to move out of overly restrictive states. While I don't disagree and I've made the same statements in the past, I no longer do. It's not always that simple.
Aging parents, infirm family members, spousal desires for family proximity, kids in school, duty location requirements of lifelong careers, financial obligation to a home that won't sell, or to business loans, and a whole host of other factors may limit a person's ability to move or relocate their families. Just move to a different state isn't always possible.
I'm pretty sure there is a big scandal about that and it's being investigated with several revotes being discussed, so I think people do care.
I can see you are angry and disgusted by the things you see happening in this country, and frankly I'm guessing that if we had a one on one conversation, we'd agree on most of them. However, in the immortal words of Roland Deschain "The world has moved on." The world is a totally different place than it was 20 or 30 years ago. That is a really short time to see the massive changes, new threats, and overall enhanced decadence and decline of American culture that we have seen in that timeframe. Are we going to throw up our hands and just say "America is a joke and that ship has sailed.", or are we going to try and continue to be heard by voting, writing our representatives, teaching our kids, and for those able, being ghosts in the machine trying to do the right thing and enact change where we can? Personally, I plan to carry on and do what I can.
I'm not trying to tell you how to feel and certainly not what to do. I'm just saying don't lose hope.
Aging parents, infirm family members, spousal desires for family proximity, kids in school, duty location requirements of lifelong careers, financial obligation to a home that won't sell, or to business loans, and a whole host of other factors may limit a person's ability to move or relocate their families. Just move to a different state isn't always possible.
I do not agree. We have the right to peaceful protest and the freedom of speech. Just because no one is listening to you doesn't mean we don't have the right to say what we want. I don't know all the details of the French protests, but storming a federal building or any building, much less the presidential residence is not peaceful protest, and of course it would be illegal and put down in this country. It isn't 1750.
Some but certainly not all.
I'm pretty sure there is a big scandal about that and it's being investigated with several revotes being discussed, so I think people do care.
I can see you are angry and disgusted by the things you see happening in this country, and frankly I'm guessing that if we had a one on one conversation, we'd agree on most of them. However, in the immortal words of Roland Deschain "The world has moved on." The world is a totally different place than it was 20 or 30 years ago. That is a really short time to see the massive changes, new threats, and overall enhanced decadence and decline of American culture that we have seen in that timeframe. Are we going to throw up our hands and just say "America is a joke and that ship has sailed.", or are we going to try and continue to be heard by voting, writing our representatives, teaching our kids, and for those able, being ghosts in the machine trying to do the right thing and enact change where we can? Personally, I plan to carry on and do what I can.
I'm not trying to tell you how to feel and certainly not what to do. I'm just saying don't lose hope.
Much of that is true.
Many Americans are apathetic, lazy and they honestly don't care how their country ends up. They don't care about their firearms freedoms or any of their other Constitutional Rights just so long as they're left alone to watch the next episode of keeping up with the Kardashians and they have Lean Cuisines in the fridge.
However on the flip side you have some Americans who care very deeply about America and who might actually do something when the time is right and the right hill to die on happens by.
It'll more than likely be over money. Change and rebellion to corruption and tyranny doesn't generally happen in a country with chronic obesity. When you keep taking away things from the productive middle class and giving it to people who aren't productive eventually the middle class will freak out. At that point there's either change or tyranny.
Part of the governments and the media's power is the myth of the all knowing, all seeing surveillance state. That "THEY" will get you if you even if you prepare to protest in the streets. They sell you the idea constantly that what you do as a person doesn't matter so you might as well look after your own skin and not make too many waves.
Some Americans buy into that fear. Many don't.
How do you think that many laws on guns and knives were repealed or relaxed? Real people, average people got up and went and lobbied to have these bills changed. Others supported those efforts with real money that they earned. So you can't say that everybody doesn't care or that they won't do something. Not every form of resistance involves storming the palace (Unless it does).
We are off topic. The discussion is the implications of the NJ law. General political comparison of us to the French are not. Also, the screed that someone should just move over a gun issue isn't useful. As pointed out, some folks chose to stay and fight. Others have much more compelling reasons than magazine capacity to stay in an area or even to move to one. So, let's drop that Internet bluster and useless cliche.
If someone could easily move, they would.
If someone could easily move, they would.
AlexanderA
Member
These gun restrictions in New Jersey and other places are not imposed from above. They are the result of politicians responding to pressure from below, i.e., to the desires of their constituents. The pro-gun side is obviously failing to convince its fellow citizens that gun rights are worth preserving. Too much navel-gazing is going on among gun owners, and not enough outreach.
Zendude
Member
It’s a divide and conquer strategy. Government can ban or levy heavy taxes on items that are of concern to less than 50% of the population. Look what happened to cigarettes.
X2...
Why? They will continue to be outvoted by large margins a major flaw of Democracy. Better to stay home and not waste time.
AlexanderA
Member
Fleeing to gun-friendlier states is not a solution, because the way things are going, those gun-friendly destinations may not stay that way for long. Then you will have gone to all the trouble of moving for nothing. The basic problem is that we as the gun community failed to police ourselves, we allowed guns to fall too easily into the wrong hands, and now we are reaping the results. But what could we have done realistically to prevent guns from falling into the wrong hands, without also preventing them from being in the right hands? I don't have an answer. This is all like the playing out of an ancient Greek tragedy, where doom is the result of human hubris.
I don't believe that anyone will ever pick up and move over one issue (in this case a Second Amendment issue, a standard capacity magazine ban).
However on top of the other 2A issues associated with NJ (no NFA, an 'Assault Weapon Ban', a mag ban which was reduced from an already ridiculous 15 rds to 10 rds, a draconian CHL process, so called 'red flag' laws which can easily be misused, 30 to 45 day waiting periods etc etc) there's a slew of other issues going on that makes NJ unattractive. NJ has a reputation for being one of the most unfriendly states in regards to taxes in the country. The cost of buying a house in NJ is also high.
*Link*, *Link 2* and NJ cost of living - Link
Homeowners in New Jersey pay the highest property taxes of any state in the country. Rates in some areas are more than double the national average. The average effective property tax rate in New Jersey is 2.40%, compared with a national average of 1.19%.
Throw in property and violent crime increasing in some areas (although decreasing in others *Link* ) because the police are sometimes hesitant to engage in stopping known criminals the way they were before because of decreased public support (the 'The Ferguson and Baltimore Effect' on police). Flight from urban areas and trying to move to the suburbs (buying an overpriced house) when considering all this then there are some reasons to consider moving. Not just reasons that are tied to the Second Amendment.
Like you said though, for some people moving is not an option due to family, friends, employment, a business, ties to the community etc.
I believe that most on here are trying to be somewhat helpful (not all, but some) and it just comes off wrong. Sort of a glib 'Just Move' when it may not be so easy for that individual.
However on top of the other 2A issues associated with NJ (no NFA, an 'Assault Weapon Ban', a mag ban which was reduced from an already ridiculous 15 rds to 10 rds, a draconian CHL process, so called 'red flag' laws which can easily be misused, 30 to 45 day waiting periods etc etc) there's a slew of other issues going on that makes NJ unattractive. NJ has a reputation for being one of the most unfriendly states in regards to taxes in the country. The cost of buying a house in NJ is also high.
*Link*, *Link 2* and NJ cost of living - Link
Homeowners in New Jersey pay the highest property taxes of any state in the country. Rates in some areas are more than double the national average. The average effective property tax rate in New Jersey is 2.40%, compared with a national average of 1.19%.
Throw in property and violent crime increasing in some areas (although decreasing in others *Link* ) because the police are sometimes hesitant to engage in stopping known criminals the way they were before because of decreased public support (the 'The Ferguson and Baltimore Effect' on police). Flight from urban areas and trying to move to the suburbs (buying an overpriced house) when considering all this then there are some reasons to consider moving. Not just reasons that are tied to the Second Amendment.
Like you said though, for some people moving is not an option due to family, friends, employment, a business, ties to the community etc.
I believe that most on here are trying to be somewhat helpful (not all, but some) and it just comes off wrong. Sort of a glib 'Just Move' when it may not be so easy for that individual.
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P5 Guy
Member
As a refugee from NJ I have to say this about that.
While a couple of my classmates went hunting with our Dads is was very few. And I am from a conservative small town in South Jersey. Only a few in town would ever be effected by capacity bans.
Maybe things changed I am going 30 years out of NJ.
While a couple of my classmates went hunting with our Dads is was very few. And I am from a conservative small town in South Jersey. Only a few in town would ever be effected by capacity bans.
Maybe things changed I am going 30 years out of NJ.
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