So what’s up with the guys in New Jersey?

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paulsj said:
Why? They will continue to be outvoted by large margins a major flaw of Democracy. Better to stay home and not waste time.
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Wait, so now they shouldn't bother to vote either? I can not believe what I am hearing in this thread......................

How then are we supposed to overcome irrational and poorly thought out laws? Restrictive magazine laws serve no real purpose, and all one has to do is watch competitive shooters to know that an individual with a ten round magazine can inflict the same devastation as someone with a higher capacity magazine. All restrictions do is limit the law abiding citizens and gun owners, while the law breakers and nuts go merrily on their way. The ONLY two LEGAL ways to get those laws turned around in the country is to VOTE on candidates, to VOTE on ordinances, regulations, and laws, and to SUE when a law is overly restrictive and burdensome. That is why the legal branch of the NRA exists.

Why vote? Because not voting, extenuating circumstances aside, is the laziest and most apathetic stance someone in this country can take, and taking that stance is NOT making a statement, it's abdicating our ability to make a statement. It's the ONE personal say we get when it comes to public policy regarding laws, regulation, and choosing leaders.

I feel terrible for the folks who live in NJ. If I were one of them, and had higher capacity magazines, or any other item that became restricted AFTER I owned it already, I'd likely hide them away, tell no one, and vote at every possible chance and write my representatives explaining the issue repeatedly.
 
I was hoping someone would address the question I asked in post #6 because I was serious and really do not know the answer.
Would some one passing thru the state be subject to arrest for having a restricted magazine? Or would they have to completely bypass that state and go around?
 
kmw1954 said:
I was hoping someone would address the question I asked in post #6 because I was serious and really do not know the answer.
Would some one passing thru the state be subject to arrest for having a restricted magazine? Or would they have to completely bypass that state and go around?
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I would submit that if they where from out of town, had another states license plate, and this was enforced against them they would have a valid argument against national transportation safety standards. However ignorance of the law is no defense. I would recommend avoiding NJ all together.
 
Browning said:
I don't believe that anyone will ever pick up and move over one issue (in this case a Second Amendment issue, a standard capacity magazine ban).

However on top of the other 2A issues associated with NJ (no NFA, an 'Assault Weapon Ban', a mag ban which was reduced from an already ridiculous 15 rds to 10 rds, a draconian CHL process, so called 'red flag' laws which can easily be misused, 30 to 45 day waiting periods etc etc) there's a slew of other issues going on that makes NJ unattractive. NJ has a reputation for being one of the most unfriendly states in regards to taxes in the country. The cost of buying a house in NJ is also high.
*Link*, *Link 2* and NJ cost of living - Link

Homeowners in New Jersey pay the highest property taxes of any state in the country. Rates in some areas are more than double the national average. The average effective property tax rate in New Jersey is 2.40%, compared with a national average of 1.19%.

Throw in property and violent crime increasing in some areas (although decreasing in others *Link* ) because the police are sometimes hesitant to engage in stopping known criminals the way they were before because of decreased public support (the 'The Ferguson and Baltimore Effect' on police). Flight from urban areas and trying to move to the suburbs (buying an overpriced house) when considering all this then there are some reasons to consider moving. Not just reasons that are tied to the Second Amendment.

Like you said though, for some people moving is not an option due to family, friends, employment, a business, ties to the community etc.

I believe that most on here are trying to be somewhat helpful (not all, but some) and it just comes off wrong. Sort of a glib 'Just Move' when it may not be so easy for that individual.
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I just went on a date last week with an old girlfriend from 25 years ago. We had an intense short-term relationship which I broke off due to her addiction issues.

She has been clean and sober for 22 years now and is the VP of a chain of recovery centers in New Jersey and is very wealthy and attractive.

She looked me up on Facebook and we've been communicating the past year or so.

She flew out here to visit family and we had a wonderful evening together.

I told her that there was no way I would ever move to New Jersey and that even Washington state was getting too restrictive.

She understood.

So I have chosen what little remains of my rights over a relationship with a beautiful sugar momma...
 
Homeowners in New Jersey pay the highest property taxes of any state in the country. Rates in some areas are more than double the national average.....

Followed closely by NH and TX.
 
rscalzo said:
Homeowners in New Jersey pay the highest property taxes of any state in the country. Rates in some areas are more than double the national average.....

Followed closely by NH and TX.
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As far as property taxes go it breaks down like this ...
1. New Jersey has the highest, 2. Illinois, 3. New Hampshire, 4. Connecticut, 5. Connecticut and then ... 6th Texas - Effective real estate tax rate: 1.86%

Yes, everything is bigger in Texas, and that includes property tax rates. Texas has a higher effective real estate rate than most of the country, but the median home value sits fairly low at $142,700. That results in a bill of $2,654 — not so scary compared to many of the states on this list.

However for Texas it evens out if you look at the overall picture (28th adjusted to 21st overall with number 1 being the lowest taxes overall).

New Jersey is 43rd overall and adjusted to 47th ... 3rd from the worst.

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer/2416/

Plus in regards to the Second Amendment/Gun Rights Texas is far better. More freedom.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/best-states-for-gun-owners-2017/247983

On that NJ is 48th (only a couple points from 51st, that spot was taken by Washington DC which is dead last in Second Amendment freedoms) and Texas was 8th from the best. Score was based on CHL, Castle Doctrine, NFA Rights, black rifles, hunting opportunities etc.

So I'd say Texas does alright.
 
460Shooter said:
Why vote? Because not voting, extenuating circumstances aside, is the laziest and most apathetic stance someone in this country can take, and taking that stance is NOT making a statement, it's abdicating our ability to make a statement. It's the ONE personal say we get when it comes to public policy regarding laws, regulation, and choosing leaders.
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Except that it's never a straight-up vote on the gun issue. It's always a mix of all sorts of issues, some of which may be more important than guns. Non-voting is a viable choice if you find yourself in this kind of dilemma. I personally am not going to vote for the devil just because he may be in favor of guns. That's a Faustian bargain. (Just saying. I'm not referring to any individual in particular.)
 
Folks are missing something here. The state of New Jersey has draconian gun control because the vast majority of New Jersey residents want draconian gun control. Poll after poll has shown that New Jersey residents want stricter gun control.

"A poll conducted by Stockton University shows that 75 percent favor making gun control laws stricter, while 19 percent say they want to keep gun laws the way they are. Only 5 percent said they would want gun laws loosened.

Seventy-five percent of respondents also said they favored a federal law banning semi-automatic weapons, while 22 percent opposed a ban."

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2018/04/03/poll-new-jersey-residents-gun-control-donald-trump/

Now back to the subject of this thread. i know a NJ resident who owned large capacity magazines. They have been crushed.
 
Not everyone has the same beliefs,,,,
The minority usually bears the brunt, justifiable or otherwise,,,
 
AlexanderA said:
Except that it's never a straight-up vote on the gun issue. It's always a mix of all sorts of issues, some of which may be more important than guns.
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You're right. Let's just say screw it, don't bother........................

We can start a new forum called TAR. The Apathetic Road

If we aren't going to try and make these things issues for the candidates and representatives, then we have no right to complain when they take away our rights.
 
AlexanderA said:
Fleeing to gun-friendlier states is not a solution, because the way things are going, those gun-friendly destinations may not stay that way for long. Then you will have gone to all the trouble of moving for nothing. The basic problem is that we as the gun community failed to police ourselves, we allowed guns to fall too easily into the wrong hands, and now we are reaping the results. But what could we have done realistically to prevent guns from falling into the wrong hands, without also preventing them from being in the right hands? I don't have an answer. This is all like the playing out of an ancient Greek tragedy, where doom is the result of human hubris.
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"We" didn't fail to police ourselves; crime is down significantly since the early 1990s, and especially since the 1960s. "We" are not police officers, nor is it appropriate to blame people who did nothing for the crimes of the guilty. "Abusum non tolit usum," is an old Latin phrase meaning "bad use does not take away from good use."

Many politicians adhere to an agenda that drives gun bans, and will use any firearms related disaster like the Parkland Florida school shooting of last February as a rally cry --- in that case aided by activist students.
 
According to the CDC today, shooting deaths are up significantly. Especially worrisome is a rise in suicides which constitute 60% percent. Some might say the figures aren’t true as a reflexive defense but is an empirical question.
 
alsaqr said:
The state of New Jersey has draconian gun control because the vast majority of New Jersey residents want draconian gun control.
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The question, then, is why the New Jersey residents want draconian gun control while Texas residents, say, don't want gun control. What is it about the culture of New Jersey and other ban states that makes gun control so popular?

Degree of urbanization? Lack of exposure to guns in socially-approved settings? If guns are associated only with (a) rural parts of the country, and (b) the criminal elements in cities, then the gun community is partly to blame by failing to show city dwellers that guns can be useful to them in legitimate ways.

I think that this lack of outreach may be a symptom of polarization and tribalism. Guns are increasingly seen -- even by gun owners themselves -- as a "red state" phenomenon. So the "blue states" are written off and the dichotomy feeds upon itself. We see this clearly in the NRA becoming an arm of the Republican party, and in turn being seen as an enemy by those on the left. It didn't use to be that way.
 
460Shooter said:
The Apathetic Road
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Non-voting is not necessarily due to apathy. In some cases it's the result of full involvement and engagement in the issues, and then the conscientious decision not to settle for "the lesser of the evils." I think this needs to be respected. I for one have been a lifelong voter, and yet I decided not to vote for President in 2016. I just could not bring myself to vote for either candidate. Time is showing that that was probably the correct decision.

In this sense, non-voting is as valid an expression of opinion as voting.
 
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AlexanderA said:
The question, then, is why the New Jersey residents want draconian gun control while Texas residents, say, don't want gun control.
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i worked in New Jersey for the largest part of two years. i'll take a stab at it:

1. There are relatively few hunters in New Jersey.

2. Much of New Jersey is densely populated.

3. Few New Jersey residents own firearms: A lack of gun culture.

http://demographicdata.org/facts-and-figures/gun-ownership-statistics/

4. New Jersey residents feel safe. Violent crime in New Jersey is down dramatically since 2000. Violent crime in Texas is up dramatically since 2011.
Houston, TX (population 2.3 million) had 302 murders in 2016. The entire state of New Jersey (population 9 million) had 372 murders and manslaughters in 2016.

https://www.cityrating.com/crime-statistics/
 
alsaqr said:
Although there has been an increase in the past few years, US murder rates are down dramatically from 1990. Murders with firearms have reached an all time high. In 2016 firearms were used in 73 percent of murders:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-u-s-murder-rate-is-up-but-still-far-below-its-1980-peak/
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Not quite, the share of murders which means the percentage of murders committed with a firearm compared with other methods of killing. There is a well known effect called the substitution effect, I would suspect that murderers lacking firearms would simply substitute other means to kill someone. The U.S. is not really a knife culture as a whole but note how in Britain, knives and acids are now the go to for committing mayhem.

The overall 538 article is misleading and congruent with other fed media stories dropping today that we are facing a nation of homicidal firearms killers. This is simply battlespace prep for gun control efforts in the new Congress. As someone in the field who does research, immediately doubt any reported statistics from the media--always go directly to the source report. Journalists are the ones on campus that generally flunk statistics and thus they rely on being spoon fed by groups with agendas. I can speculate and have seen some data about why 2015-16 spiked and it has to do with certain cities and certain activities in those places. 2017 total homicides actually seem to be declining slightly in some of those same cities.

ALWAYS, always, go to the primary source.

The source for the report is FBI UCI 2016 Report, https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/cius-2016 You see that 16459 US deaths were considered homicides and 11004 were by firearm (mostly handguns) in 2016. The overall peak was 24526 homicides in 1993 (from a significantly smaller population btw--roughly 70 million more US residents in 2016 than in 1993.) In 1993, about 16000 homicides out of 24500 were from firearms. 1980 was the peak year in murder rates btw. FWIW, Source is BJS: Bureau of Justice Statistics, Homicide Trends in the U.S. 1950-2005. https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbse&sid=31

For fun, the UCI is simply the number of murders reported by local agencies to the feds. Local agencies have been known to change crime categories or even fudge on the causes of death to downplay homicides. This is simply the best data that we have.

If you like depressing statistics on causes of death, you can plug and play with the CDC Wisquars system for reporting deaths of all sorts. Not all states participate so data is limited to the sample mentioned. https://wisqars.cdc.gov:8443/nvdrs/nvdrsDisplay.jsp
 
AlexanderA said:
In this sense, non-voting is as valid an expression of opinion as voting.
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The problem is that an expression of opinion by not voting is an expression that no one hears, and it has no impact on the results of representation and policy.

A statement heard by no one is no statement at all. Expressing that opinion here and not in an official capacity makes no difference to the cause.

And when the opposition that is trying to take your rights away is loud and illogical, keeping quiet just makes their voice louder.

What's that old saying? The only thing necessary for the proliferation of evil is the indifference of good men. Or something to that effect. Without voting, we are reflecting indifference because our voices are not counted.

Ok, we aren't going to agree here. So rather than cause thread lock, I'll just say take care and have a good night.
 
My closest friend lives in NJ. He did not have any high capacity magazines before the ban as they were too hard to already come by. Even his Xdm 45 has neutered magazines. He recently bought a house so all his firearms are at his parent's until the chief of police approves he can move them to his new home. Ridiculous state when it comes to the 2A.
 
In Colorado we mostly ignore the law concerning magazines; that is we carry on just as before the ban. In most of the state law enforcement doesn't do anything to enforce the ban and most independent firearm stores sell the "large capacity magazines" as "kits" by sliding the bottom plate off while inside of the package. Laws that are made to prevent hypothetical situations and are not or cannot be enforced merely serve to reduce respect for the laws that are necessary to give guide rails to a civilized society which in turn leads to real enforcement problems for real outlaws. Too bad the progressives will never realize nor admit this fact on their path to eliminate individual rights in favor of collective control.
 
kmw1954 said:
I was hoping someone would address the question I asked in post #6 because I was serious and really do not know the answer.
Would some one passing thru the state be subject to arrest for having a restricted magazine? Or would they have to completely bypass that state and go around?
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I would assume it would be the same as if you're from Colorado and have pot in Jersey, you're gonna get arrested
 
I lived and worked in the "Arm Pit" of the United States (New Jersey) for 30 years. There was the North Jersey crowd, "Liberals" and the South Jersey crowd, "Conservative. There was plenty of hunting in South Jersey, plenty of farm land. The farmers would grant permission if you took the time during the summer months to ask. Things started to change for the worst, farm land sold for housing developments. I was shocked at how things had built up with new housing. The new population is from the Philadelphia region and "Liberal".

One of the gun dealers that I dealt with, was also the armorer for the New Jersey State Police in South Jersey. He was also a Class III dealer. He applied for a CCW permit and was declined by the Superior Court Judge. The State Police came to his aid, but the Judge's reply, "You should seek a different profession". With the increase of the State Police issued automatic weapons, the Judge had to concede. He can only carry concealed when he is transporting automatic weapons to and from the State Police barracks.

The hassle of applying for a Permit to Purchase a handgun is a farce (90 days max, to clear), but it's their way of trying to discourage you of buying a handgun. I had to email my State Senator about the slow process in my area. The detective would hold my Permit until the last day. After that, 30 days was the normal. Also, you have to be finger printed each time you apply. All of that added cost, going to local police department.

When I knew that I was going to retire, made the move to Pennsylvania. Had my CCW in 2 hours after visiting the Sheriff's office. What a difference in a 50 mile radius. I'm afraid that New Jersey is a lost cause for hunters and gun owners. Yes, I waived the "White Flag".

Now a resident of sunny South Florida and loving it.
 
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