some different questions about .44mags/bear defense

[jamesjames]

I've been reading these threads over the years. So here is what I have distilled and learned from the sourdoughs in the land of the midnight sun.

Yes, a 45-70 guide gun is the best bear stopper in a fast, handy carbine package.

For handguns, the question always revolves around what handgun & caliber you will practice with and what you will carry. The best barrel length would be a 4 inch to get the compromise between accuracy and carryability (as a defensive, anti-bear handgun). Best caliber? Well, .44 magnum, .454, .460, and 500 S&W are all hunting calibers, but become really heavy guns for wilderness carry as a side arm. And if you don't shoot with them on a regular basis so you are accurate with them, they are no more effective than a .44 magnum that you can hit with.

The Smith model 29 is at the threshold of comfortable carry weight and still offering magnum power. I happen to have the 329pd and it is wonderful for carry in the lower 48. I can't practice long with maggies in the 329pd, and I carry Bufalo Bore reduced recoil hardcast keiths in it when hiking, hunting, and fishing. But it is a joy to carry, I often forget I have it on, and its always on my person and never gets left in the truck.

Whatever your brand preference, carry hard cast keith-style fodder in a caliber of .44 or above and practice with your carry load. Its as much about central nervous system shot placement as it is about penetration. I wouldn't go into Alaska Brown bear country armed with only a hand gun, and I wouldn't go by myself.

 

[Cosmoline]

This is true but even the best of slugs like those from Dixie, still have a very poor sectional density.

Sectional density is an important factor, but you seem to be thinking that bears require the same level of S.D. in a projectile as the thick skinned African game. They do not, and can in fact be killed reliably with projectiles with low sectional densities provided there is enough speed and energy to push them into the torso. Slugs fall into this class. And the fact is, a whole lotta problem bears have been killed with them. I've never heard of a hardcast slug stopping on a bear's ribs. Though I would like to see some gelatin testing of the heavy hardcasts, I think it's a mistake to reject them on S.D. alone.

SD becomes more important in smaller projectiles that cannot rely on sheer force and diameter to power through the torso and destroy vital tissues. Handgun bullets, for example. But when you're throwing a 1 3/8 oz chunk of hardcast lead with three thousand foot pounds of energy, it's going to do terrific amounts of tissue damage even if its SD is lower than, say, a 6.5 Swede.

The biggest limitation on slugs is their range, due to a very bad B.C. they lose that power quickly. The big bore rifles do much better for bear hunting for this reason, but for up close defense both platforms are sufficient.

 

[KodiakBeer]

You need a shorty shotgun or Marlin .45/70. A .44 mag has about 2/3rds the muzzle energy of a .30/30 and 1/3rd the energy of a .45/70. Carrying a .44 for bears is comparable to carrying a .22 for protection against people. The shot alone might deter the aggressor, but then again it might not.

If you insist you must take a handgun, then take one that you shoot very, very well. If you hit a bear on the tip of the nose, you'll kill him dead right there. The brain is the size of a softball and directly behind the nose (not the forehead). If you shoot him in the chest, he'll probably die eventually, but you won't know about it because you'll be dead.

Pepper spray will not blow back into your face if you use the high pressure type designed for bears. It works, and it works very well.

There is a huge difference between hunting/killing a bear and STOPPING a bear before it kills you. If a bear is actually attacking you, it is by definition already adrenalized and loaded with that potent chemical cocktail that is common to all mammals when they are in "fight mode". Shooting him with a pea-shooter is not your best option.

Take the advice of the experts. Get some pepper spray, get a shotgun, and enjoy your Alaskan experience.

 

[CraigC]

A .44 mag has about 2/3rds the muzzle energy of a .30/30 and 1/3rd the energy of a .45/70. Carrying a .44 for bears is comparable to carrying a .22 for protection against people.

This is completely false. As I said before, muzzle energy is completely meaningless anyway but especially in discussions on dangerous game. Energy does not kill. Blood loss or CNS disruption is what kills. Breaking bones and poking a big hole through vitals and breaking bones along the way is what stops a bear. Bone crushing penetration is king and two holes leak better than one.

Sectional density is an important factor, but you seem to be thinking that bears require the same level of S.D. in a projectile as the thick skinned African game.

They are much closer to heavy African game than whitetail deer! And remember, we're talking about stopping a pissed off, charging grizzly, not taking a distant shot at an undisturbed bear. Huge difference, collossal.

As I said before, I'll say it again, what you need to stop a bear is penetration. Enough to break a shoulder and punch through the vitals. Preferably exiting. Sectional density plays a huge role, as does bullet weight and construction. Come guys, this is basic stuff. It does not take a rocket scientist (or maybe it does) to understand that a 400gr projectile has a FAR better chance of breaking bones and penetrating deeply if it is .45 caliber than it does it if is .73 caliber. There is no magic here, all the same rules apply to the 12ga slug and all you get with a huge, low SD slug is a very large, relatively shallow wound channel.

 

[Guillermo]

you like the Smith that you already own

44 is better than throwing food at the bear

Bring the pepper spray anyway...bears like well spiced meat

 

[KodiakBeer]

This is completely false. As I said before, muzzle energy is completely meaningless anyway but especially in discussions on dangerous game.

No, it's not. I agree it's not everything, but it's a good thumbnail sketch of a rounds effectiveness. Weight, velocity and frontal diameter all count - and muzzle energy is a weighted combination of those three factors.

As I said before, I'll say it again, what you need to stop a bear is penetration. Enough to break a shoulder and punch through the vitals.

And you'd be only partially correct, because punching an adrenalized bear through the vitals isn't anywhere near a guaranteed stop. The fact that he may die later is no consolation to you when his first inclination is to pop your head like a ripe melon. Breaking a shoulder is only a guarantee of slowing a bear, not stopping him.

What you need to stop a bear is a shot directly into the nose. Period. And you're going to need to do that on a bear approaching you at 40 miles per hour while his head bounds up and down. And you're going to need to do that almost instantly because despite all the TV shows, they don't stand up and roar and then amble toward you in slow motion. They just charge, in silence, at race horse speed, from close range.

That's why an instinctive point/shoot shoulder fired firearm like a shotgun is the best choice.

Some of us have been there and done that. Some of us have been there and done that more than once. Some of us have scars and limps from having been there and done that. Some of you might want to listen to some of us who have been there and done that.

 

[sonier]

god we got too stop with these bear threads lol when kodiakbeer shows up it starts to spiral into flaming. just get the fastest heaviest leadcast loads for your 44 mag and youll be fine.

 

[KodiakBeer]

god we got too stop with these bear threads lol when kodiakbeer shows up it starts to spiral into flaming.

I haven't flamed anyone, so why are you flaming me?

 

[Guillermo]

when kodiakbeer shows up it starts to spiral into flaming

I misread that and thought you were talking about a flaming bear attack.

If a burning bear is running at me I want a bigger gun than a 44 magnum!!!

 

[Sam1911]

Guess we've taken this about as far as civility will allow then?

Sic terminus.