Some OCD questions from a beginner.

[frgood]

While I continue to read through all these Reloading threads I'd like to put forth a few specific question to avoid beginner damage.


My first loading attempts is .40 S&W for USPSA Limited Major. (later, when i know more, I'll work on 9mm for IDPA amd 9mm major) I have V. N320 Powder and 1000 165gr. Berry's HBFP. According to the Load data my range is 4.9 - 5.2 grains with an 1.126 OAL.

I'm using a Lee Turret (as my mentor uses the same and got me a 60% discount). The powder drop is the one with a wheel with preset holes. So I used the .61 dial which gave me a variance of 4.9-5.1.

My new question is... Am I being too anal? 4.9 grs. makes my velocity 995, which is below Power Factor. 5.0-5.2 is within power factor. Do I have to get one of those trickle powder drops so that I can drop 5.2 exactly? Those are pricey and I'm not a world-class, state-class, or town-class shooter. ( Yet ).

The Lee micrometer has a variance of 4.7 - 5.3. But I'm told over time it will 'season' and settle down. Is the occasional +.2 grain over max a risk? What do you guys think is the best accuracy goals competition loads?

Eventually, I'd like to be skilled enough to make up some 9mm major for my open gun. But that will require some time and knowledge to be correct and safe.

Thoughts? Questions?

 

[BCRider]

How much does the next size up hole drop?

This issue of measuring power with steps is also why I ditched the hole plates in favor of the Lee screw (micrometer) adjustable powder bar. In use I did not find that the screw adjuster had that amount of variation that you are seeing mentioned. But of course some of that will rely on the coarseness of the powder. The finer the granules the more consistent the drops will be.

I've never used N320 but I have had to "repurpose" some powders I've used to loads that needed a larger volume due to the grain size of the powder. The coarser formats just don't fill a small charge volume with a consistent enough result.

 

[LeonCarr]

If you were really OCD you would write it in alphabetical order as CDO .

Checking different data books it might be within specs. Always check multiple sources.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[entropy]

If you're OCD, you're gonna love reloading......

If you were really OCD you would write as CDO

???? OCD isn't dyslexia...

 

[Reloadron]

Where are you getting your velocity from? Would it be based o load data or actually shooting over a chronograph? Even a micrometer adjusted powder thrower will typically be +/- 0.1 grain so while it may be an improvement over what you have it still isn't perfect.

There are ways to improve the Lee system but let's not look for a solution to a problem you may not even have.

Ron

 

[Mad Chemist]

N320 should meter better than +/-.2gr through a Lee Auto disc. It meters very consistently through mine. Are you using a low quality scale? Is your weighing technique precise and repeatable?

The Auto disc doesn't always play nice with bulky powders but N320 is not a bulky powder by any stretch. My max variation with this powder from my auto disc is around +/-.05gr.

 

[GJSchulze]

There will always be a variance in your velocity, so you need to use a charge that is over the minimum PF such that a charge that is .1 or .2 less will still make PF.

I shoot both IDPA and USPSA local matches. They never check PF, so don't sweat it too much.

9mm can only legally be major in the Open division. Limited and Limited-10 have a .40 caliber minimum. Production is always minor.

You would need 1123 fps to make 147 major. You are going to running your gun near maximum pressure or beyond, so any change in charge or OAL will be dangerous.

 

[gwpercle]

When you start courting maximum loads you want a very good measure, that's totally adjustable and you want to practice throwing that 5.1-5.2 grain charge . Technique and consistency with how you handle the measure will give you consistent drops.
With a good measure and a bit (sometimes it takes a lot) of practice you should have charges that vary 0.1 grain maximum . That's OK.
The best way to test your measure's setting is to drop 10 charges.
10 X 5.1 = 51 grains......then it's set for 5.1 grains.
And be sure to use an accurate scale.
Gary

 

[moxie]

If you are really obsessive about your hobby, I say obsess about better equipment, like RCBS or Redding.

And by all means get a chrono. Handbooks only tell you what THEY got with THEIR gun using a specific load on a specific day. You need to know what YOUR gun is doing with that load. And only a chrono can tell you that.

You don't say what data you are using. I recommend getting both the Speer and Lyman handbooks for starters.

 

[LiveLife]

40 S&W for USPSA Limited Major ... N320 ... 165 gr. Berry's HBFP.

According to the Load data my range is 4.9 - 5.2 grains with an 1.126 OAL.

4.9 grs. makes my velocity 995, which is below Power Factor. 5.0-5.2 is within power factor.

Did you measure 995 fps using a chrono? Likely, you won't make major PF with 165 gr bullet as 180 gr is better suited for major PF and N320 (see N320 PF chart below). You will get different muzzle velocities out of same barrel when using different bullet types. Vihtavuori used PMC TC-FMJ (which is jacketed bullet) compared to your plated bullet with 5.5" barrel (if your barrel is shorter, your velocities will be even less)

165 gr PMC TC-FMJ OAL/COL 1.126" N320 Start 4.9 gr (994 fps) - Max 5.2 gr (1038 fps)

Also, temperature variation can affect muzzle velocity so many match shooters load few PF higher to ensure their loads will chrono to meet power factor. Your load on hot summer day may not chrono the same on cold winter day so repeat your chrono testing and you may need to adjust your powder charge.

Also, depending on the bullet nose type, you may need to load longer for greater accuracy. On this thread, I loaded TCFP bullets to longer than SAMMI max at 1.143" to decrease gas leakage - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=93628

Here are some major PF loads with N320 you can reference (note longer OAL/COL and barrel length) - http://www.k8nd.com/documents/hl40sw.pdf

Bullet Type / Powder charge / OAL-COL / FPS / PF / Pisto-Barrel lengthl

- 180 gr Zero JHP 4.0 gr VV-N320 1.150”825 fps 148 PF - Glock 22 for Production Div.

- 180 gr Mont. Gold 5.0 gr VV-N320 1.150” 913 fps 164 PF - SVI 5” Bbl

- 180 gr MT Gold FMJ 5.0 gr VV-N320 1.155” 950 fps 171 PF - STI Edge

- 180 gr TMJ-FP 5.1 gr VV-N320 1.170” 950 fps 171 PF - CZ75 Standard

- 180 gr MT Gold 5.2 gr VV-N320 1.170” 931 fps 167 PF - Para P16 5” Bbl

- 180 gr MT Gold FMJ 5.3 gr VV-N320 1.200” 970 fps 174 PF - SVI 5" barrel

- 180 gr D&J JFP 5.3 gr VV-N320 1.215” 998 fps 179 PF - 5” Bbl.

- 180 gr Zero FTC 5.1 gr VV-N320 1.166" 950 171 PF - 5” Ultimatch barrel

 

[jmorris]

If you are new you can be "OCD", once you become "Old School", you will call it "thorough".

Resist becoming complacent, most important if you are going for "major 9" loading.

 

[LiveLife]

Keep in mind that most match shooter will use 9mm brass once for 9mm Major and leave them on the ground for unsuspecting brass hounds to reuse them (they should at least have the decency to mark "X" on case base) ...

It would be good idea to get A LOT of once-fired 9mm brass for 9mm Major if/when you get there.

IMO, I prefer using 40S&W for major PF as I can readily meet PF and not overpressure barrel/brass. I am getting ready to shoot USPSA matches again and considered using Glock 40-9 conversion barrels with thicker chamber/barrel for 9mm Major but likely end up using 40S&W.

 

[Lost Sheep]

The powder drop is the one with a wheel with preset holes. So I used the .61 dial which gave me a variance of 4.9-5.1.

That would be the Lee Auto-Disk powder measure.

Consistency of operation with this measure, as with any measure, is the key to consistent charge weights. Notice that the turret turns 4 quarter-turns for every powder drop. If your operation of the press is not consistent, the powder will be vibrated into different packing densities. This is not usually a problem, but bears watching. Some people move the measure off-press or adopt other mitigating solutions.

If you have a cavity that is too small, you can fine-tune it by reaming out the hole with a drill bit, a round file or sandpaper wrapped around a dowel or pencil. If you have a cavity that is too large, you can drill a hole through the side of the disk into the cavity and run a flat-point machine screw into the cavity to reduce the powder charge (other threads have pictures) You don't even have to tap the hole, as the machine screw will grip the plastic well enough to work.

Do I have to get one of those trickle powder drops so that I can drop 5.2 exactly?[/B] Those are pricey

A powder trickler is not necessarily expensive. A medium-large rifle case twirled between your fingers will do and you can make one of your own with a straw and a plastic cup.

Good luck

Lost Sheep

 

[frgood]

Thanks all.
There is a lot to absorb and I am very grateful. I will digest this all and respond over the next day or so.

First thoughts are
1) The 9mm stuff is removed from the conversation for now. I'll focus on the .40 until I have a clue.
2) It would seem that the auto disk measure is going to me some time to settle into the correct technique. So it is probably safe for me to not work upwards just yet. I'll settle for the 4.9 grs. +- .1 until I get a good feel working the press.
3) I am starting to understand what is meant by 'feel'. I can 'feel' the pressure when priming.

I've completed another 300 rounds this past evening and will do 200 more for a couple of matches this weekend USPSA and Steel.

I did order the Lee Adjustable Charge Bar. I found that I need to run about 20 cycles till the powder drops settle. Based on other readings, I think patience is on order as it may take quite a few rounds for the device to settle.

 

[frgood]

Did you measure 995 fps using a chrono? Likely, you won't make major PF with 165 gr bullet as 180 gr is better suited for major PF and N320 (see N320 PF chart below). You will get different muzzle velocities out of same barrel when using different bullet types. Vihtavuori used PMC TC-FMJ (which is jacketed bullet) compared to your plated bullet with 5.5" barrel (if your barrel is shorter, your velocities will be even less)

Also, temperature variation can affect muzzle velocity so many match shooters load few PF higher to ensure their loads will chrono to meet power factor. Your load on hot summer day may not chrono the same on cold winter day so repeat your chrono testing and you may need to adjust your powder charge.

Also, depending on the bullet nose type, you may need to load longer for greater accuracy. On this thread, I loaded TCFP bullets to longer than SAMMI max at 1.143" to decrease gas leakage - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=93628

Here are some major PF loads with N320 you can reference (note longer OAL/COL and barrel length) - http://www.k8nd.com/documents/hl40sw.pdf

Bullet Type / Powder charge / OAL-COL / FPS / PF / Pisto-Barrel lengthl

Thanks for the references. I will review and adjust accordingly. This is some good information here.

 

[LiveLife]

N320 is cut extruded powder like most rifle powders (see above comparison pictures) and Pro Auto Disk (PAD) meters best with small granule powders like Bullseye/Titegroup/WST/W231/HP-38/Universal/PowerPistol/BE-86/WSF/AutoComp/CFE-Pistol/etc. - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9890280#post9890280

I usually recommend Pro Auto Disk "break in" with coated powders like W231/HP-38/Titegroup/WSF/AutoComp/etc. as black coating will coat the sliding surfaces of PAD for more consistent powder drops of less than .1 gr. If using non-coated powders, you can coat the sliding surfaces (especially elastomer wiper surface) with fine graphite powder or finely shaved No 2 pencil lead on paper and rub the wiper until a shiny black surface forms for smooth PAD operation and consistent metering.

2) It would seem that the auto disk measure is going to me some time to settle into the correct technique. So it is probably safe for me to not work upwards just yet. I'll settle for the 4.9 grs. +- .1 until I get a good feel working the press.

I did order the Lee Adjustable Charge Bar. I found that I need to run about 20 cycles till the powder drops settle. Based on other readings, I think patience is on order as it may take quite a few rounds for the device to settle.

You can facilitate faster settling of powder in the hopper by lightly tapping the hopper with finger tip about 10 times then measuring powder drops until consistent. For match grade loads, I prefer to use powders with PAD that will meter with less than .1 gr variance. While USPSA action pistol match loads do not require accuracy of bullseye match loads, I use the following guidelines for match load vs practice/plinking loads - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9892617#post9892617

Match loads:

- Montana Gold/Winchester FMJ/JHP bullets
- Sorted brass / headstamp
- Separately resized and hand primed cases
- Primer pocket checked/cleaned
- CCI/Winchester primers
- Specific powder that metered with less than .1 gr variance
- Tighter finished round dimension QC criteria

Range practice/plinking loads:

- Cheapest plated/lead bullets
- Mixed range brass / headstamp
- Resized and press primed cases in progressive mode
- Primer pocket not checked or cleaned
- Cheapest primers
- Cheapest available powders, even with up to .2+ gr variance like Promo
- Less finished round dimension QC criteria

While I used Montana Gold 165/180 gr FMJ/JHP as my designated match bullets with less than 1 gr variance bullet-to-bullet, I used plated bullets for practice which varied by several grains bullet-to-bullet.

If you want all of your double taps to land in "A" zones without flyers, you may want to consider changing bullets. I could never match the accuracy of my MG jacketed loads with regular plated bullets. Plated bullets with rounded solid base tend to leak more high pressure gas which would result in greater chamber pressure variations that would decrease accuracy and increase shot group size. Loading bullets longer than SAAMI max of 1.135" will decrease bullet jump to start of rifling and 1.140"-1.143" increased accuracy for me with 165/180 gr TCFP bullets - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=93628

I had good results with Berry's hollow base plated bullets but you may want to conduct comparison accuracy test with different bullets to see which bullet produces most accurate shot groups with your match pistol. While I would suggest Montana Gold 165/180 gr JHP bullets, if cost is a factor, consider trying RMR HM thick plated bullets as harder 11-12 BHN lead alloy core seem to help produce greater neck tension than other plated bullets with softer lead/alloy cores (with less bullet set back) and thus far has produced smallest shot groups compared to other bullets I have shot with BE-86 (and you get 5% THR discount with thehighroad5 code) - http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/40-1...7394E3B2F532EFF5CE2784C2C73991.m1plqscsfapp06

Although many match shooters consider N320 "the" powder for 9mm, for 40S&W many match shooters prefer other powders like Titegroup/W231/HP-38/PowerPistol/WSF/AutoComp etc. With 165 gr bullet, you will make major PF more easily with powders like WSF/AutoComp as you can make PF even with the lower start charges.

I have tested various powders for 40S&W match loads but ended up using WSF for major PF loads and W231/HP-38 for almost major PF/minor PF loads.

During the powder shortage, I tested Herco for 40S&W and found it to be very clean burning (can you say shiny inside of brass case?) and more accurate than other powders -

Lately, I tested BE-86 with RMR HM thick plated bullets loaded longer at 1.142"-1.143" and this load produced sub 2" shot groups at 25 yards out of factory stock Glock 22. I plan to resume USPSA match shooting later this year and will be using BE-86/RMR HM load as my match load - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9924922#post9924922

 

[frgood]

This is all excellent information. I think it wise to simply follow it. I'm going to cut this all into a document and print it off for reference.

It would seem that the advice I received to purchase N320 was probably good for the person who recommended it But for my use and experience others (including bullet choice) would be better served elsewhere.

I will admit that during this initial cash outlay the was a price differential in bullets. Xtreme bullets.com was recommend as it was the least priced. But it would seem that, with the this additional knowledge, I can make a more informed purchase

 

[LiveLife]

PM me your address and I will PIF an assortment of 40S&W bullets (Montana Gold, Berry's, RMR, X-Treme) in 165 and 180 gr weights. This way you can conduct comparison range tests and see which bullet works with your match pistol to produce smallest consistent shot groups/double taps.

I would also suggest you look around for more powders to try (I mean N320 is not cheap you know ).

If I had to choose, I would grab Herco and BE-86 as my preferred choices for accuracy and WSF/AutoComp/CFE Pistol for making major PF readily and W231/HP-38/Titegroup/WST for minor PF/some major PF loads. Some like Solo 1000/American Select and they are next powders for me to test for 40S&W.

BUT Keep in mind that USPSA stages are scored by accuracy AND stage time. You will quickly learn that faster stage time with less accuracy will always TRUMP slower stage time with more accuracy. Which means you want your load matched to your pistol/recoil spring rate to produce the fastest double taps that will all shoot inside 1/2 sheet of copy paper. Range testing with your match pistol at typical USPSA target distances (7/10/15/25 yards) with various loads is the only way to determine which bullet/powder/charge is best match load for that particular pistol.

This is why many USPSA match shooters will use faster than Universal/BE-86 burn rate powders as slower burning powders won't produce efficient powder burn at major/minor PF powder charges and will spray unburnt powder granules into the air/shooter. Goal is to pick the right bullet/powder combination that will bring the front sight snap right back on target for fast double taps. Also, have plenty of recoil springs on hand as after several thousand rounds, recoil springs will lose their poundage and will affect felt recoil/muzzle flip/double tap speed and accuracy (many who complain about "snappy" 40S&W simply have not done enough load development or never replaced recoil springs ). You don't want to conduct your match load development/double tap range tests with worn out recoil spring.

You may want to post further in "Competitions" category but the best advise I can provide for range practice is to use multiple 1/2 sheets of copy paper as targets and practice double taps at 7 yards until you can place all the shots inside the paper then move targets out to 10/15/25 yards. This way your double taps will always hit "A" zones. Once you become more proficient, use 1/4 sheets of copy paper as targets from 7 yards for double taps and you may even want to pursue "point shooting" - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9859706#post9859706

 

[frgood]

As I begin to catch up (talk about drinking from a fire hose), I see a new tangetn is to learn better about the various bullet coverings. FMJ vs. plated et. al. Some recent reading seems to indicate that HP bullets have better accuracy and also higher velocity then RN. I do not know how FP fits into that equation.

That seemed counter intuitive to me So I am simply accepting it as fact. I am no ballistician although I do understand Bernoulli.

Next aspect I had not thought of was neck tension. I think I am too green to appreciate that data... yet. But I am one that thrives on such data so this is some great stuff.

Oh, in response to an earlier question. The velocity numbers I original posted were from the load data sheets and I am using them as a reference point. I did get a chrono and ran my first batch of 20 through it (so far I have only two batches ever made. the first batch was 20 which I chono'd and had an average of 999 fps. (so close) with a high of 1024 and low of 987.


Actually, if there are any Central Florida readers, I'll be at the VGHC USPSA and Steel Match this weekend. You can find me with the black CZForum shirt wandering around. Please stop by and say hello. I appreciate all the advice I can get to becoming a better USPSA shooter.



Str. 1 4
1 995 970
2 992 994
3 992 1000
4 996 1002
5 987 1007
6 1002 1009
7 1024 1017
8 1002 1020
9 1008 972
10 1002 err
Hi 1024 1020
Low 987 970
Avg. 1000 999
Mean 999 1002
Deviation 12.72311981 15.23245803

The second batch I've made up about 300 using the Lee Charge Bar. I have yet to chrono this batch as I made them up last night. But it is what started this whole thread.

I am nervous about going directly to a match but it is the only ammo I have and I really need the practice. btw, I'm shooting a CZ TS .40, I think this is a sturdy gun and it, too, is fairly new having barely put 1000 rounds through it. So everything is 'breaking in' including the shooter.

I made a mistake and ordered 1000 155gr. RNFP bullets from xtreme It definitely sounds like the consensus is 180. I assume, and hope, that using 180 will have a little more punch in my hand. the first batch of 165 felt insanely light to me. (yes I am a CZ fan all metal and some heft is preferred).

 

[LiveLife]

As to your chrono data, that's cutting it real close and you will likely lose velocities as temperature gets colder. Some local matches may not even care what your loads chrono at when you are starting out but when you start to climb the ladder, some will want to verify your loads so you don't have an unfair advantage.

Hollow Point bullets put most of weight towards bullet base which rides the rifling and many match shooters (including really OCD bullseye match shooters like my mentor) believe this shift in center of mass/gravity provides greater rotational stability in flight for greater accuracy.

I started out with 155/165 Montana Gold FMJ bullets but later switched to 165/180 gr JHP for this reason. Also, contrary to your thinking, at major/minor PF, 180 gr bullet will produce less felt recoil, especially depending on the powder used. For minor PF, 180 gr load recoils lighter than full power 9mm that it almost feels like you are cheating.

Also, JHP without exposed lead base of FMJ keeps things cleaner, especially for Open Division shooters who use Comps on their barrels.

Ultimately, holes on target will be the judge along with the shot timer. We can discuss various aspects of match load development endlessly but comparison range test is only thing that will determine which is the best match load for your pistol.

I am nervous about going directly to a match but it is the only ammo I have and I really need the practice. btw, I'm shooting a CZ TS .40, I think this is a sturdy gun and it, too, is fairly new having barely put 1000 rounds through it. So everything is 'breaking in' including the shooter.

I loved shooting CZ75! And don't worry. If you can keep the match shooting at "enjoyable" level, you will do much better instead of stressing out about what you did wrong. In the meantime, while you are watching TV, practice mag changes until it becomes second nature. I place my index finger above along the top of magazine to locate the bottom of the mag well for faster/positive magazine changes. Get plenty of sleep and have a hearty breakfast on match day along with plenty of hydration inside the ice chest.

If you can, have someone video record your stages. It is the best tool for reviewing your performance and identifying areas that need improvement.

 

[frgood]

As to your chrono data, that's cutting it real close and you will likely lose velocities as temperature gets colder. Some local matches may not even care what your loads chrono at when you are starting out but when you start to climb the ladder, some will want to verify your loads so you don't have an unfair advantage.

Hollow Point bullets put most of weight towards bullet base which rides the rifling and many match shooters (including really OCD bullseye match shooters like my mentor) believe this shift in center of mass/gravity provides greater rotational stability in flight for greater accuracy.

I started out with 155/165 Montana Gold FMJ bullets but later switched to 165/180 gr JHP for this reason. Also, contrary to your thinking, at major/minor PF, 180 gr bullet will produce less felt recoil, especially depending on the powder used. For minor PF, 180 gr load recoils lighter than full power 9mm that it almost feels like you are cheating.

Also, JHP without exposed lead base of FMJ keeps things cleaner, especially for Open Division shooters who use Comps on their barrels.

Ultimately, holes on target will be the judge along with the shot timer. We can discuss various aspects of match load development endlessly but comparison range test is only thing that will determine which is the best match load for your pistol.

I loved shooting CZ75! And don't worry. If you can keep the match shooting at "enjoyable" level, you will do much better instead of stressing out about what you did wrong. In the meantime, while you are watching TV, practice mag changes until it becomes second nature. I place my index finger above along the top of magazine to locate the bottom of the mag well for faster/positive magazine changes. Get plenty of sleep and have a hearty breakfast on match day along with plenty of hydration inside the ice chest.

If you can, have someone video record your stages. It is the best tool for reviewing your performance and identifying areas that need improvement.

heh heh. Videos remind me, in no uncertain terms, how much weight I need to lose. lol. Until I lose 40-50 lbs, I can't get over that and now avoid viewing any footage.

But I do totally agree with your assessment, video reviews are excellent tools for analysis.

 

[Dudedog]

If the 6.1 disk is close but a little under I would just enlarge it carefully or use BDSs screw mod on the .66 cavity. (I need to save the link once I find yet again) By my calcs N320 .61 should be about 5 to 5.1, ,66 about 5.5. Listed VMD of N320 is .129 caculating with the pound I have and different disks/charge weights I got a number closer to .121.

In my opinion you don't need to "obsess" about different equipment.
My Lee "Deluxe" turret is more than capable of loading pistol ammo that is accurate enough that other things are more of an issue, the shooter (me), the pistol, the load (bullet/powdere/charge weight) mixed range brass etc.

I like my Hornady LNL and Hornady dies but I actullay prefer the Lee size die I have in 9mm over the Hornady. (not quite as smooth but sizes a hair tighter)

All the loads in my RMR 124 hardcore match bullet thread and the loads I posted data for in the CFE thread were loaded on my Lee, and the chrono numbers look good and consistant to me given mixed range brass some of which I know has been loaded 4 or 5 times.
I would say loads with ES of 20 - 30 with SDs of 9 using mixed range brass when loading charges as thrown by a Pro Disk is pretty decent.

As a side note I would really like to see documented proof that pistol ammo loaded on a Dillon/Lyman/RCBS/Redding/fill in the blank press with the press makers dies is better than ammo loaded on a Lee press with Lee dies.

Sorry off thread I just hate Lee bashing.