Something You Don't See Very Often

[22250Rem]

Driftwood; .... Thanks again for another informative chapter in the "Tip Up" story. Complete with pictures so dummies like me can look at them and see what you mean.

 

[kBob]

More good stuff and thanks for it.

Honestly I had no idea how that bolt worked and you have explained it nicely.

-kBob

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

The other fun thing about the Tip Ups is the names. Why in the world did S&W choose #1, #1 1/2, and #2? What's with the half?

The answer is the #1s came first, the first one was made in 1857. These were the tiny 22 caliber, seven shot revolvers. Not very powerful at all, so in 1861 S&W introduced the much larger and more powerful #2 (Old Army) a six shot revolver chambered for the 32 Rimfire Long cartridge. Not a powerhouse by modern standards, but much more powerful than the teeny 22. The #2 was not a huge revolver but it was big enough that it was a bit more difficult to conceal than the #1. So in 1865 S&W introduced a model about halfway in size between the #1 and the #2. This one was also chambered for the 32 Rimfire Long cartridge, but because the cylinder was smaller, it was a five shooter, not a six shooter like the #2.

What to do about a name? #2 was already taken. So S&W did the somewhat logical thing of calling the new comer the #1 1/2. Logical, right?

S&W did not get around to building a really full sized belt pistol until 1869, when the White patent had expired and they wanted to introduce a revolutionary new design. That gun eventually came to be known as the American model, and was built on the #3 sized frame, as were the Russian, Schofield, New Model #3, and the 44 Double Action.

This photo shows a size comparison between a Russian Model (#3), #2, #1 1/2, and #1.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Driftwood, you don't happen to own a Volcanic as well do you?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood, you don't happen to own a Volcanic as well do you?

Not yet. I've handled a few, but they are pretty expensive.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

There's a beautiful one on Gugbroker in about 90% condition that is engraved. $21,500.00 is the asking price. Slightly outside my price range.

 

[22250Rem]

Thanks again, Driftwood.. Those frame sizes are interesting. So I guess the number 1 size was the "J" frame of that era, then the 1,& 1/2 was the "K", #2 = "L" and #3 ="N", right? (LOL) ... But seriously; that's really interesting.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Those frame sizes are interesting. So I guess the number 1 size was the "J" frame of that era, then the 1,& 1/2 was the "K", #2 = "L" and #3 ="N", right? (LOL)

Howdy

I know you were only kidding.

But you cannot easily make a comparison of sizes between the numbered sizes of the TIp Ups and Top Breaks, and the lettered sizes of the Hand Ejectors. The following photos and text reflect my own observations, I have not read this stuff about size comparisons anywhere.

As you can see in this photo, the J Frame Model 36 at the top dwarfs the #1 Tip Up at the bottom. Probably the only Hand Ejector that S&W ever made similar in size to the #1 was the tiny M (not N) frame Ladysmith. A tiny seven shot revolver that was chambered for the 22 Long (not Long Rifle). Yes, that is the original Ladysmith, not that J frame thing S&W was making more recently and calling a LadySmith. These were first manufactured in 1902.

An interesting myth about the Ladysmith is that when stern old New Englander Daniel Wesson found out they were the gun of choice of ladies of the night, he ordered production ended. A fun story, but Wesson died in 1906 and the Ladysmith continued in production until 1921.

There were no Top Breaks made in the #1 size. The #1 1/2 size included the Tip Up 32 Rimfire New Model at the bottom of this photo and the Top Break 32 Single Action in the middle. There is actually an error in this photo. I have pictured 32 Rimfire Long cartridges next to the Tip Up. While they do fit in the cylinder, the gun was actually supposed to shoot the shorter 32 Rimfire cartridge, not 32 Rimfire Long. The 32 S&W (not 32 S&W Long) cartridges pictured next to the Top Break are correct. At the top is the little Ladysmith again, with a few 22 Longs, also the correct cartridge for that gun.

When we get to the #2 size, I think there is a fair comparison in size between these and the I Frame Hand Ejectors. The I frame was the precursor to the J frame. At the bottom is the Tip Up #2 Old Army, with the correct 32 Rimfire Long ammunition. Next up is a #2 size 38 Single Action with the correct 38 S&W ammo. At top left is an I Frame 32 Regulation Police. The cylinder of this model is dimensionally very similar to the #2 Tip Up and #2 Top Break. I have pictured the Model 36 again to show how the J Frame has a more elongated cylinder than any of the others.

Finally, we come to the #3. As I said before, S&W never produced a Tip Up in this size. They however produced many Top Breaks in this size. Specifically there were five separate models built on the Number Three size frame; the American, Russian, Schofield, New Model Number Three, and the 44 Double Action.

I think the #3s and the N frames are reasonably comparable in size.

Pictured at the bottom in this photo is a Top Break 2nd Model Russian, with the correct 44 Russian ammunition, and at the top is the first N Frame revolver, a 44 Hand Ejector 1st Model (Triple Lock) with the correct 44 Special ammunition. The two cylinders are very similar in diameter, but the Triple Lock cylinder is a little bit longer.

 

[owlhoot]

Driftwood, you are a treasure.

 

[bannockburn]

Driftwood

I like how diminutive in size the original Ladysmith revolver looks when compared to a J frame revolver. Thanks for the excellent photos and information.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I like how diminutive in size the original Ladysmith revolver looks when compared to a J frame revolver. Thanks for the excellent photos and information.

Outside of S&W collectors, not many people today have ever seen one. (Inside a S&W collector, it's too dark to see one. Sorry, couldn't resist. A poor, take off on an old Groucho Marx joke.)

I was looking for one for a while, this was the first one I came across that actually works. Most I had come across had something busted inside. There were actually three different models built over the years, this one is the 3rd model. So I have two more to go.There were even 'Target' models made with adjustable sights, but it is so tiny I don't see how anybody could shoot one well enough to shoot one accurately.

This one is the 3rd Model, it shipped in 1910.

For a while, these were the only 22 Rimfire Hand Ejector revolvers S&W made, until Phil Bekeart had a brilliant idea in 1911. But that is another story for another time.

And no, I will probably never fire it. Might bust something.

 

[dbmjr1]

Why isn't this a YouTube channel, akin to Forgotten Weapons?
Very educational.

 

[bannockburn]

Driftwood

It's almost like someone left a K frame in the dryer too long and this is what it shrunk down to!

 

[Armored farmer]

How about a lookalike from Rollin White Arms Co. Lowell, mass.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

How about a lookalike from Rollin White Arms Co. Lowell, mass.

Howdy Again

The Rollin White Arms Company of Lowell Massachusetts was started in 1861 by the same Rollin White of patent fame. About 4300 revolvers were made, most of which were bought by Smith and Wesson to keep up with demand. The company was liquidated in 1864 and the Lowell Arms company purchased the company assets. The Lowell Arms Company began manufacturing revolvers, but ironically they were in violation of White's patent, so he sued them.

You will note the Rollin White gun is not a Tip Up. The frame is solid. You will also note the top of the frame does not have the same sort of cylinder stop mechanism that the Tip Ups had. I assume the cylinder stop (bolt) is in the normal position in the frame, below the cylinder.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Why isn't this a YouTube channel, akin to Forgotten Weapons?

Several reasons. Most gun videos on YouTube are very poorly done. Out of focus, poor lighting, poor camera technique, usually by one guy in his basement trying to talk and hold the camera at the same time. Most of the time the commentary is terrible; poorly organized and poorly presented.

Ian McCollum, who does the Forgotten Weapons series is a rare exception. Ian is extremely knowledgeable about all sorts of firearms. My knowledge pales next to Ian's. Ian is a consummate professional, he travels around to various auction houses, where he is well known, and makes presentations about rare and unusual firearms. His presentations are thoughtful, entertaining, and well thought out. He obviously has someone else holding the camera for him, moving the camera as Ian speaks. Also, Ian has funding. His website generates some income, and he had a crowd funding campaign to upgrade his video equipment.

I'm just a guy in his basement who likes to take photos of interesting firearms in his collection and post a little bit of information about them on forums like this.

 

[Speedo66]

And we're glad you do, thank you very much!

 

[Armored farmer]

Howdy Again

The Rollin White Arms Company of Lowell Massachusetts was started in 1861 by the same Rollin White of patent fame. About 4300 revolvers were made, most of which were bought by Smith and Wesson to keep up with demand. The company was liquidated in 1864 and the Lowell Arms company purchased the company assets. The Lowell Arms Company began manufacturing revolvers, but ironically they were in violation of White's patent, so he sued them.

You will note the Rollin White gun is not a Tip Up. The frame is solid. You will also note the top of the frame does not have the same sort of cylinder stop mechanism that the Tip Ups had. I assume the cylinder stop (bolt) is in the normal position in the frame, below the cylinder.

It is.
Thanks for the info, driftwood.