I've Googled up a bunch of posts on this topic but they mostly seem to be about rifle cartridges or semi-auto cartridges. I've been shooting 13.5 grains of IMR 4227 under an Oregon Trail 240 gr. SWC in a Ruger Flattop 44 Special with no problems other than some unburned powder. About 6 months ago I tried some Oregon Trail 200 Gr. RNFP over 5 grains of TiteGroup and got a bunch of soot down one side of the fired case. Not enough pressure I thought but didn't pursue it because I only had 10 bullets obtained as a free sample. Recently i decided to try Speer 200 grain Gold Dots. I have a bunch of Power Pistol so I started with 8 grains, CCI 300 primers and new Starline brass. I picked that load as midrange out of Speer #14. I got a bunch of soot down one side so I went up to 8.5 grains and still got a bunch of soot. That's only .1 grain under Speer's maximum so I don't want to go any higher. It's only on one side and not the other. In more than 30 years of reloading I've not run into this before so I could use some advice. Something wrong with the gun? Use a different powder? Don't worry about it? Thanks.
Soot on 44 Special cases
- Thread starter daverich4
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Don't worry about it. Happens all the time on my medium-light .44 Spc. loads.
ljnowell
Member
4227 is a dirty burner anyway and you probably aren't making enough pressure to fully seal the case.
It's not a big deal either way. If they are accurate shoot 'em.
It's not a big deal either way. If they are accurate shoot 'em.
gamestalker
member
Try lifting the barrel vertical before you shoot, then lower it lowly, the one side only issue will diminish usually. Light to medium charges of certain powders is the common culprit, but it doesn't really matter unless it bothers you. When you do the barrel lift thing, it puts the powder charge up against the flash hole.
I never really determined whether it does anything to accuracy, I don't use powders that do it any more, might though?
GS
I never really determined whether it does anything to accuracy, I don't use powders that do it any more, might though?
GS
I guess I was concerned because the 4227 load is a medium load and doesn't leave any soot on the case. The Power Pistol load is a near maximum load according to Speer but leaves a lot of soot on the case. It occurs to me that both of the loads I've tried that had soot were with 200 grain bullets so maybe it's something to do with light weight bullets in my gun. At any rate, I'm getting about two inch groups with the Gold Dots and it sounds like the consensus is to go ahead and shoot them. Thanks for the help.
Mad Chemist
Member
Power pistol runs best at higher pressures. It obviously works but it's not an ideal powder for a low pressure cartridge like the .44spl.
TfflHndn
Member
The soot is likely occurring at the top of the shell when fired (the outer side of the shell as it sits in the cylinder) due to a very small gap between the casing and the cylinder wall that exists before the pressure builds up enough to seal the entire circumference of the casing in the cylinder. Slower powders will build that pressure a tad slower and allow some soot to blow down the gap further than a faster powder. Not a worry. Also, that unburned powder may just be powder skeletons that don't disintegrate during burning. Scoop it together and drop a match on it. Probably won't burn unless it's a really slow powder that's not igniting fully. A faster powder might solve both problems. Or a magnum primer.
gwpercle
Member
That's the classic sign of not enough pressure for the brass case to expand and seal the chamber. Not dangerous. It's not the gun. It's the brass.
I wanted to light load 41 magnum brass with cast bullets and it would happen. I wound up annealing the brass, the top 1/3 of the case, so the brass was not as hard and would seal. I was using Unique for those. After annealing the sooting up was eliminated . I don't use these for magnum loads of course, just for target loads.
Usually 44 special brass is not as hard as magnum brass and this is not a problem. I'm wondering if this batch of brass is too hard. I would recommend return/exchange it or do a little annealing at the mouth end.
Gary
I wanted to light load 41 magnum brass with cast bullets and it would happen. I wound up annealing the brass, the top 1/3 of the case, so the brass was not as hard and would seal. I was using Unique for those. After annealing the sooting up was eliminated . I don't use these for magnum loads of course, just for target loads.
Usually 44 special brass is not as hard as magnum brass and this is not a problem. I'm wondering if this batch of brass is too hard. I would recommend return/exchange it or do a little annealing at the mouth end.
Gary
stubbicatt
Member
I've experienced that burn from Titegroup in 40 S&W also. I think it may be the powder.
+1 on 231 in 44 special. A really good powder.
+1 on 231 in 44 special. A really good powder.
This was common even on factory ammo, back when it was the 246 gr lead round nose bullets. It also happens in 45 Colt quite a bit, the newer generation of cases are fairly heavy. Look at cases from back in the pre-war period and they seem thinner.
243winxb
Member
Power Pistol - 44 Special
I would try- magnum primer, heavier bullets, or change powder. The 44 Special is listed at 15,500 psi , thats low pressure.
I would try- magnum primer, heavier bullets, or change powder. The 44 Special is listed at 15,500 psi , thats low pressure.
In Handloader #293 Brian Pearce spoke very highly about this particular combination but because this is the second 200 grain bullet I've had the same problem with I think I'm just going to shoot up the Gold Dots I have and then go back to heavier bullets. Thanks everyone for the help.
TimSr
Member
You need a faster powder. A magnum primer will not help with blow by.
243winxb
Member
44 special- Power Pistol - Brian Pearce
In a modern revolver, i would guess it could be loaded hotter, resulting in highter pressure to get a better burn with Power Pistol. This would also expand the brass better. What loads did Brian Pearce use? Never mind, found info at link. Alliant shows 8.6 gr maximum, but i would guess at the SAAMI maximum pressure for the cartridge. 15,500 PSI. If you decide to load above 8.6 gr, do so at your own risk. Add link http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf
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243winxb
Member
44 caliber bullet diameters.
Could .430" make a difference ?? Last time i checked, bullets are made in 3 different diameters , .429" .4295" and .430"
Could .430" make a difference ?? Last time i checked, bullets are made in 3 different diameters , .429" .4295" and .430"
Krogen
Member
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I've been shooting 44 Sp for years. Depending on the load, I get varying amounts of soot, smoke and unburned powder. But, if the load is safe and shoots well, I don't sweat it. Shooting can be a messy business, but it sure is enjoyable. My recommendation: Accept the soot!
^^ This.
Most of the sooty cases I've had have never been cleaned other than with a cloth. I've been shooting some of it off and on since the early 80's. Doesnt seem to hurt anything. I did have a friend with a case cleaner run the ones I'd been shooting black powder in after I stopped shooting black. I still find a few stained with black now and then. They just got washed out in hot water and dried on a towel when shooting black powder.
Here is my post on the same subject. Regardless of caliber. I shoot some factory 45 ACP the other day and it had the same "soot" problem.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=759151
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=759151
1. Don't worry about it
2. If worried, just tumble the cases
3. If irritated
, just up go to Unique, Bullseye, AA#5 (as suggested by JoneB), ...or kick TiteGp up into the 6-6½gr range (w/ the 200 grainers)
Stay "near" the mid-to top end.
2. If worried, just tumble the cases
3. If irritated
, just up go to Unique, Bullseye, AA#5 (as suggested by JoneB), ...or kick TiteGp up into the 6-6½gr range (w/ the 200 grainers)Stay "near" the mid-to top end.
Hondo 60
Member
I've also had the unburned powder issue with Accurate #5.
It seems like it doesn't fully burn until you get up to a max load.
My fav 45 Colt load is 11.0 gr of #5 under a 200 gr LRNFP.
I emailed Accurate's ballistician & he said 10.5-11.5 gr with that bullet.
Well at 10.5 the accuracy & velocity was fine, but I had a bunch of unburned powder & soot.
I guess I shouldn't say unburned - more like an incomplete burn.
So I made sure I had a very tight crimp & bumped it up to 11 gr.
That helped a bunch.
Same issue with 38 Spl loads (the yellow stuff in the pic.)
It seems like it doesn't fully burn until you get up to a max load.
My fav 45 Colt load is 11.0 gr of #5 under a 200 gr LRNFP.
I emailed Accurate's ballistician & he said 10.5-11.5 gr with that bullet.
Well at 10.5 the accuracy & velocity was fine, but I had a bunch of unburned powder & soot.
I guess I shouldn't say unburned - more like an incomplete burn.
So I made sure I had a very tight crimp & bumped it up to 11 gr.
That helped a bunch.
Same issue with 38 Spl loads (the yellow stuff in the pic.)
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