Specifically CFE-Pistol for .45 ACP

[Damon Larsen]

First off, Merry Christmas everyone.
Wife got me everything needed to load 45ACP for my new’ish Dillon XL750. Conversion kit, Dillon Dies, and even 1,000 projectiles of 230gr FMJ’s from RMR. Yeah, she’s a keeper

Anyway, loaded up 35 test rounds. Wondering why it was a little “Smokey” when firing my rounds. Don’t experience this when loading 9mm.



CFE-Pistol
230 gr. FMJ RN
OAL- 1.250-1.265 (15 thousandths variation when loading progressively)
5.9 gr. charge
CCI small pistol primer


Felt like a puppy dog when shooting, very little perceived recoil. Very accurate and cycled just fine. The Smokey thing I mentioned wasn’t bad, but wondering why this is happening?

Hodgdon data lists their OAL at 1.200 with a start load of 5.4, max at 6.2.

Because I have a longer OAL, and with that very little perceived recoil, I think I could easily bump it up to the maximum of 6.2. What do you guys think??

I’ve read a few other stories on other forums of them bumping up the charge and gets rid of the “smoke” because CFE is a slow burning powder. Anyone who can give me any advice is greatly appreciated. I’ve only been reloading a few months.

 

[LiveLife]

Wondering why it was a little “Smokey” when firing my rounds. Don’t experience this when loading 9mm.

45ACP is a already a low pressure cartridge. Using longer OAL than published will reduce the chamber pressure further which may affect powder burn, that you are seeing as "Smokey". 9mm is a higher pressure cartridge so even at start range load data, chamber pressure will be higher for better powder burn.

230 gr. FMJ RN ... OAL- 1.250-1.265 ... 5.9 gr

Because I have a longer OAL, and with that very little perceived recoil, I think I could easily bump it up to the maximum of 6.2. What do you guys think?

Yes, use higher powder charge to compensate for longer OAL but you are using lead load data when you should be using jacketed load data - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

• 230 gr Lead RN CFE Pistol COL 1.200" Start 5.4 gr (816 fps) 14,600 PSI - Max 6.2 gr (942 fps) 20,100 PSI

• 230 gr HDY FMJ FP CFE Pistol COL 1.200" Start 6.0 gr (815 fps) 16,000 PSI - Max 6.8 gr (934 fps) 19,800 PSI

Here's Speer load data that uses longer OAL you can reference - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...liber_451-454_dia/45_Automatic_230_TMJ_RN.pdf

• 230 gr Speer TMJ CFE Pistol OAL 1.260" Start 6.0 gr (793) - Max 7.5 gr (973 fps)

 

[Damon Larsen]

45ACP is a already a low pressure cartridge. Using longer OAL than published will reduce the chamber pressure further which may affect powder burn, that you are seeing as "Smokey". 9mm is a higher pressure cartridge so even at mid range load data, chamber pressure will be higher for better powder burn.


Yes, use higher powder charge to compensate for longer OAL.

Here's Speer load data that uses longer OAL you can reference - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...liber_451-454_dia/45_Automatic_230_TMJ_RN.pdf

• 230 gr Speer TMJ CFE Pistol OAL 1.260" Start 6.0 gr (793) - Max 7.5 gr (973 fps)

Oh wow!!! Can’t thank you enough for the info! That’s exactly what I was wondering about. That Speer data blew my mind, and matched my load exactly on the OAL!! According to Speer, I was basically at the starting load. No wonder my test rounds were kinda tame, and “Smokey”....(best word I could come up with..lol) Thank you again!

 

[Damon Larsen]

45ACP is a already a low pressure cartridge. Using longer OAL than published will reduce the chamber pressure further which may affect powder burn, that you are seeing as "Smokey". 9mm is a higher pressure cartridge so even at start range load data, chamber pressure will be higher for better powder burn.


Yes, use higher powder charge to compensate for longer OAL but you are using lead load data when you should be using jacketed load data - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

• 230 gr Lead RN CFE Pistol COL 1.200" Start 5.4 gr (816 fps) 14,600 PSI - Max 6.2 gr (942 fps) 20,100 PSI

• 230 gr HDY FMJ FP CFE Pistol COL 1.200" Start 6.0 gr (815 fps) 16,000 PSI - Max 6.8 gr (934 fps) 19,800 PSI

And here's Speer load data that uses longer OAL you can reference - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...liber_451-454_dia/45_Automatic_230_TMJ_RN.pdf

• 230 gr Speer TMJ CFE Pistol OAL 1.260" Start 6.0 gr (793) - Max 7.5 gr (973 fps)

Also, am I supposed to be looking at “LRN” or “TMJ” for load data when I don’t see “FMJ” listed?? You mentioned I was looking at the wrong one for Hodgdon data...

 

[LiveLife]

Also, am I supposed to be looking at “LRN” or “TMJ” for load data when I don’t see “FMJ” listed?? You mentioned I was looking at the wrong one for Hodgdon data...

LRN is Lead Round Nose. You referenced lead load data for jacketed bullet. TMJ is closer to FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) in bullet construction and diameter.

While TMJ (Total Metal Jacket, trademark for Speer) is plated bullet, it is thick plated with copper plating thickness on par with gilding metal thickness of jacketed bullets and can be driven to jacketed velocities.

 

[Damon Larsen]

LRN is Lead Round Nose. You referenced lead load data for jacketed bullet. TMJ is closer to FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) in bullet construction and diameter.

While TMJ (Total Metal Jacket, trademark for Speer) is plated bullet, it is thick plated with copper plating thickness on par with gilding metal thickness of jacketed bullets and can be driven to jacketed velocities.

I seriously thought LRN stood for “long round nose”. I’m slapping my forehead as I type this. Lol!! That makes so much sense on the load data now. I’ve read about casted lead, and such, having a lower powder charge in comparison to FMJ’s, etc. Big thanks for helping out a newb such as myself.

 

[LiveLife]

Happy to help out a fellow THR member and welcome.

 

[jimboecv]

Follow up and let us know how it worked.

 

[JRadice45]

Im not sure the OAL I use off the top of my head but I load a 230gr fmj using 6.7gr of CFE pistol and i get an average of 814 FPS out of a 5 inch barrel. I don't notice much smoke if any at all, recoil is a bit punchy.

 

[Damon Larsen]

Happy to help out a fellow THR member and welcome.

Hey buddy, was looking to pick your brain again on the same subject. I have loaded and shot about 500 rounds of 45ACP now. They function fine, but this CFE powder is dirty. Looking at another post on this forum, you were helping a guy out with a similar problem, so I thought I'd check in with you. Based on what you commented on this other post, you mentioned CFE is slower burning and to either bump up the charge, or reduce case volume(shorter COAL).

My load for 45ACP is:

Powder: CFE Pistol @ 6.6 grains
Bullet: RMR 230gr. FMJ
Primer: CCI Large Pistol Primer
COAL: 1.250-1.260(varies 10 thousandths on my progressive press, plus I use mixed brass)

So whether I'm shooting out of my Sig 1911, XDm 5.25, or my CMMG Banshee with an 8 inch barrel, this load is dirty as hell. At 6.6 grains of powder, it's at the upper end up my max load. And it's pretty punchy! So I don't think I should add more powder. Should I go for a shorter COAL to increase pressure? Will that give me a more cleaner and efficient burn?

 

[DanK3Pos]

Based on the information in this thread, I set up the press last night. OAL is set at ~1.20 (I get some variance on my progressive as well). If I have the time this weekend and the weather permits I will load and shoot some test loads. I'll try to post up later what the chrono results are and how dirty it is. I'm looking for ~900 fps and CFE should easily get me there.
edit - The Hodgdon load data says 1.200" and max 6.8grns. iirc, so the shorter OAL should clean things up.

 

[Damon Larsen]

Based on the information in this thread, I set up the press last night. OAL is set at ~1.20 (I get some variance on my progressive as well). If I have the time this weekend and the weather permits I will load and shoot some test loads. I'll try to post up later what the chrono results are and how dirty it is. I'm looking for ~900 fps and CFE should easily get me there.
edit - The Hodgdon load data says 1.200" and max 6.8grns. iirc, so the shorter OAL should clean things up.

Sounds great, very curious how it'll turn out for you. Thank you and please let me know!! I'm assuming you are also using 230gr. FMJ's

 

[LiveLife]

RMR 230 gr. FMJ CFE Pistol @ 6.6 grains COAL: 1.250-1.260 ... function fine, but ... load is dirty as hell...

At 6.6 grains of powder, it's at the upper end ... max load. And it's pretty punchy! So I don't think I should add more powder. Should I go for a shorter COAL to increase pressure? Will that give me a more cleaner and efficient burn?

45ACP is a low pressure cartridge with max load data operating around 19,000 PSI. Your load being dirty is likely from less efficient powder burn from lower chamber pressures. People complain about slower Herco burning dirty for 45ACP but when loaded to higher 40S&W pressures (around 30,000 PSI), Herco burns cleaner to leave even inside of cases clean.

6.8 gr max is for jacketed Flat Point bullet loaded much shorter at 1.200" which produces deeper bullet seating depth that increases chamber pressure. You are using FMJ Round Nose at longer OAL which produces shallower bullet seating depth that decreases chamber pressure.

Since you are using FMJ at longer 1.25"-1.26", I would reference Speer TMJ RN load data (Similar nose profile as RMR FMJ RN) and increase powder charge to 6.8, 7.0, 7.2 and 7.4 gr and see if powder burns cleaner - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...liber_451-454_dia/45_Automatic_230_TMJ_RN.pdf

• 230 gr Speer TMJ CFE Pistol OAL 1.260" Start 6.0 gr (793) - Max 7.5 gr (973 fps)

 

[Damon Larsen]

45ACP is a low pressure cartridge with max load data operating around 19,000 PSI. Your load being dirty is likely from less efficient powder burn from lower chamber pressures. People complain about slower Herco burning dirty for 45ACP but when loaded to higher 40S&W pressures (around 30,000 PSI), Herco burns cleaner to leave even inside of cases clean.

6.8 gr max is for jacketed Flat Point bullet loaded much shorter at 1.200" which produces deeper bullet seating depth that increases chamber pressure. You are using FMJ Round Nose at longer OAL which produces shallower bullet seating depth that decreases chamber pressure.

Since you are using FMJ at longer 1.25"-1.26", I would reference Speer TMJ RN load data (Similar nose profile as RMR FMJ RN) and increase powder charge to 6.8, 7.0, 7.2 and 7.4 gr and see if powder burns cleaner - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...liber_451-454_dia/45_Automatic_230_TMJ_RN.pdf

• 230 gr Speer TMJ CFE Pistol OAL 1.260" Start 6.0 gr (793) - Max 7.5 gr (973 fps)

You are awesome my friend, thank you again for your help. Maybe I’ll try to bump the COAL back 25-30 thousandths to achieve more pressure then

 

[rfwobbly]

► Open this page and print it for your reloading data notebook....
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/burn-rate-color.pdf

► Now understand that powder burn rates are VERY unscientific, but as a general "rule of thumb" tables like this can be helpful. See your CFE is down at #42. Like was said, chamber pressure helps the powder to burn more efficiently. Since the max chamber pressure for common handguns (that are OK with CFE) is about twice that of 45ACP, you have to use a faster powder to get the powder to burn efficiently at those lower pressures. 45ACP works best with powders way down between #13 to #27 (approximately). That's quite a step !!!

Like ANY fuel that is consumed (kerosene, gasoline, natural gas, candle wax) gun powder leaves a thick sooty coating when it's not burning efficiently. And so the black soot and un-burned powder inside the gun is simply a sign of non-efficient fuel burn. It's basically a coating of un-burned fuel !!

Efficiency, as always, means doing the same job with less energy. When you move to a faster burning powder, all this residue will clean up because you'll be consuming all the energy in the powder.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Damon Larsen]

► Open this page and print it for your reloading data notebook....
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/burn-rate-color.pdf

► Now understand that powder burn rates are VERY unscientific, but as a general "rule of thumb" tables like this can be helpful. See your CFE is down at #42. Like was said, chamber pressure helps the powder to burn more efficiently. Since the max chamber pressure for common handguns (that are OK with CFE) is about twice that of 45ACP, you have to use a faster powder to get the powder to burn efficiently at those lower pressures. 45ACP works best with powders way down between #13 to #27 (approximately). That's quite a step !!!

Like ANY fuel that is consumed (kerosene, gasoline, natural gas, candle wax) gun powder leaves a thick sooty coating when it's not burning efficiently. And so the black soot and un-burned powder inside the gun is simply a sign of non-efficient fuel burn. It's basically a coating of un-burned fuel !!

Efficiency, as always, means doing the same job with less energy. When you move to a faster burning powder, all this residue will clean up because you'll be consuming all the energy in the powder.

Hope that makes sense.

That makes a lot of sense to me now. Definitely a big learning step for me that i was unaware of being pretty new to this. I was going for the longest COAL that I could. Was completely unaware of insufficient pressure, especially with a slow powder and 45ACP. Really appreciate the link to that burn chart, and explaining this to me.

 

[Dudedog]

Checking Hodgdon I see this
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon CFE Pistol .451" 1.200" 6 815 16,000 PSI 6.8 934 19,800 PSI
Start 6gr MAX 6.8

CFE-P works well for me in .45 if I want full power loads.
A 230 at 930 is about 214PF so not a powder puff .45 load.
For anything other than full power stuff you would be better served with a faster powder IMO.
My goto loads for .45 practice and plinking us HP38(W231)
4.7 gr with a 230 is fairly soft and shoots well for me, 5gr shots a little better but has a little more recoil.
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon HP-38 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP
(note, a full power load with CFE-P is close to 100 fps faster than one with HP38)
5" 1911, Mixed range brass, Win LP, charges as thrown after setting measure
String: 2
Date: 9/11/2016
Time: 9:25:57 AM
Grains: 230
Hi Vel: 762
Low Vel: 714
Ave Vel: 734
Ext Spread: 48
Std Dev: 16
45 RMR 230 4.7 HP38
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
762 175.26 296.51
735 169.05 275.87
725 166.75 268.414
748 172.04 285.715
739 169.97 278.881
721 165.83 265.461
714 164.22 260.331

 

[rfwobbly]

That makes a lot of sense to me now. Definitely a big learning step for me that i was unaware of being pretty new to this.

Here's another burn rate chart that you ought to add to your collection. Instead of a numbered list (which never agree with the next guy's list), this one is laid out in a "relative burn rate" format. So this one tends to show equivalent rates....
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf

 

[LiveLife]

Here's another burn rate chart that you ought to add to your collection.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf

No, I respectfully disagree with that chart as it lists W231/HP-38 and Zip faster burning than Red Dot/Promo, Titegroup, 700X and even E3 (which is just about the fastest pistol powder) and I KNOW that's not the case. Accurate Powder really need to get their act together and update that chart!

But I do like how Accurate Powder column does comparison of burn rate and found this to be more accurate to "comparable" burn rate - https://www.lhs-germany.de/fileadmi...e_Abbrenngeschwindigkeit_Export_Feb._2018.pdf

 

[Damon Larsen]

Checking Hodgdon I see this
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon CFE Pistol .451" 1.200" 6 815 16,000 PSI 6.8 934 19,800 PSI
Start 6gr MAX 6.8

CFE-P works well for me in .45 if I want full power loads.
A 230 at 930 is about 214PF so not a powder puff .45 load.
For anything other than full power stuff you would be better served with a faster powder IMO.
My goto loads for .45 practice and plinking us HP38(W231)
4.7 gr with a 230 is fairly soft and shoots well for me, 5gr shots a little better but has a little more recoil.
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon HP-38 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP
(note, a full power load with CFE-P is close to 100 fps faster than one with HP38)
5" 1911, Mixed range brass, Win LP, charges as thrown after setting measure
String: 2
Date: 9/11/2016
Time: 9:25:57 AM
Grains: 230
Hi Vel: 762
Low Vel: 714
Ave Vel: 734
Ext Spread: 48
Std Dev: 16
45 RMR 230 4.7 HP38
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
762 175.26 296.51
735 169.05 275.87
725 166.75 268.414
748 172.04 285.715
739 169.97 278.881
721 165.83 265.461
714 164.22 260.331

Wow!! Really wish I had gotten a email notification on this!! This is really good to know, thought I was losing my mind on CFE and 45ACP. I lowered my OAL as mentioned by Livelife to increase pressure, but I'm still getting un-burnt powder.

 

[Damon Larsen]

► Open this page and print it for your reloading data notebook....
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/burn-rate-color.pdf

► Now understand that powder burn rates are VERY unscientific, but as a general "rule of thumb" tables like this can be helpful. See your CFE is down at #42. Like was said, chamber pressure helps the powder to burn more efficiently. Since the max chamber pressure for common handguns (that are OK with CFE) is about twice that of 45ACP, you have to use a faster powder to get the powder to burn efficiently at those lower pressures. 45ACP works best with powders way down between #13 to #27 (approximately). That's quite a step !!!

Like ANY fuel that is consumed (kerosene, gasoline, natural gas, candle wax) gun powder leaves a thick sooty coating when it's not burning efficiently. And so the black soot and un-burned powder inside the gun is simply a sign of non-efficient fuel burn. It's basically a coating of un-burned fuel !!

Efficiency, as always, means doing the same job with less energy. When you move to a faster burning powder, all this residue will clean up because you'll be consuming all the energy in the powder.

Hope that makes sense.

That makes a ton of sense, thank yoiu so much and sorry for the really late reply.

 

[BBarn]

I tried CFE Pistol with 200gr. plated bullets in the 45 Auto and quickly came to the conclusion that CFE Pistol isn't a good match for the 45 Auto. For my purposes, many other powders work better in that cartridge.

 

[Damon Larsen]

I tried CFE Pistol with 200gr. plated bullets in the 45 Auto and quickly came to the conclusion that CFE Pistol isn't a good match for the 45 Auto. For my purposes, many other powders work better in that cartridge.

I agree. Learned that I should decrease the OAL for my 45ACP load, but I still got a ton of unburnt powder and smoke, even at 6.5 grains of CFE. I’m thinking I’m with you on this. CFE and 45ACP just don’t match up. I don’t understand the other forums I’ve read about people saying it was good for that caliber. Especially now that I’ve seen that it’s burn rate isn’t very fast. I want a clean all around powder for 9mm, 40, and 45, so I might try N320

 

[BBarn]

I've never tried Vihtavouri powders, but they seem to have a very good reputation. I don't currently load .40, and load very little 9mm, but if the N320 doesn't work out you might consider W244 or Sport Pistol. They have worked well for me in the 45 Auto.

 

[Damon Larsen]

I've never tried Vihtavouri powders, but they seem to have a very good reputation. I don't currently load .40, and load very little 9mm, but if the N320 doesn't work out you might consider W244 or Sport Pistol. They have worked well for me in the 45 Auto.

I will definitely take a look! I’ve been really looking at Sport Pistol anyway...you think it would be good for 9mm and 40 also? Is it a faster burning powder? I assume so if it’s great for 45ACP