Storing my C&R shotgun at my brothers home in another state.
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MedWheeler
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Depends on whether or not either, or both, of you have a C&R license, and the local laws of each state.
I'd "gift" the gun to him through a FFL, as long as, when you are there, no laws require you to also undergo the normal transfer requirements to possess it again, even temporarily.
I'd "gift" the gun to him through a FFL, as long as, when you are there, no laws require you to also undergo the normal transfer requirements to possess it again, even temporarily.
dogtown tom
Member
What you've written describes an illegal interstate transfer of a firearm between residents of different states (a federal crime by both).
You obviously are not "storing" the firearm for your use, but for his use....we know this because you mention you brother has no firearm for self defense and the quotes around "storing".
While federal law permits you to ship or store a firearm at an address outside of your state, it does not allow a person in another state to have possession.
Ship the gun to a dealer in your brothers state, he'll transfer to your brother.
The firearm being C&R is immaterial.
dogtown tom
Member
Well no.
If the brother has an 03FFL (doubtful) there is a process for the lawful transfer of a C&R eligible firearm to him.
If the brother does not hold a C&R, the exact same transfer process is followed as with any other interstate shipment of a firearm. "Gifting" has absolutely noting to do with it because you cannot gift a firearm directly to a resident of another state.
And absolutely there are laws that apply to the OP getting the gun back from his brother....it's another transfer requiring shipment to an FFL, 4473/NICS.
Let's be clear. If your brother has access to the gun you are not simply storing the gun with him. You are transferring (as a loan or a gift) the gun to him. That would be an interstate transfer and would need to go through an FFL under federal law. It would also need to comply with gun transfer laws of his State of residence.
If you want the gun back that would also be an interstate transfer. While you are visiting him, he may temporarily loan it to you for a lawful, sporting purpose, but if you want the gun back home with you it would need to be transferred to you through an FFL. That might require your brother shipping the gun to an FFL in your State of residence to do the transfer, depending on the state transfer laws in his State of residence and yours.
Here is the basic federal law on interstate transfers.
- Under federal law, any transfer of a gun (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. And a handgun must be transferred through an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.). There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.
- In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.
- In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence. In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.
- There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.
- The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).
- Here's what the statutes say:
- Violation of these federal laws is punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine. It also results in a lifetime loss of gun rights.
herrwalther
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What Frank said. Unless you feel like going through the transfer twice (giving to brother and getting it back), pick something you aren't going to miss or can replace easily.
MedWheeler
Member
dogtown tom writes:
..to my:
I wasn't talking about "getting the gun back." I was talking about "possessing it", such as for "temporary sporting purposes." As I indicated, it can depend on the state, but I'm pretty sure that Federal law does allow for the brief and temporary loaning of a firearm to another person who is not a resident of the state in which the loaning takes place for such purposes. If that has changed at the Federal level, I missed it.
ETA: Frank has mentioned above that Federal law does indeed still allow for such "temporary" transfer. No "4473/NICS" is required. State law, of course, may vary.
..to my:
I wasn't talking about "getting the gun back." I was talking about "possessing it", such as for "temporary sporting purposes." As I indicated, it can depend on the state, but I'm pretty sure that Federal law does allow for the brief and temporary loaning of a firearm to another person who is not a resident of the state in which the loaning takes place for such purposes. If that has changed at the Federal level, I missed it.
ETA: Frank has mentioned above that Federal law does indeed still allow for such "temporary" transfer. No "4473/NICS" is required. State law, of course, may vary.
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Theohazard
Member
Sure, but giving your firearm to him on an indefinite loan so he has a means to protect his home, then leaving and going back to your state? Does that count as a “temporary loan for sporting purposes”? I’m no lawyer, but I highly doubt it.
Sistema1927
Member
This is the 2nd thread from the OP that I have read today that contained fuzzy logic with regard to federal firearms laws. It might be helpful to read more and post less.
AlexanderA
Member
The simplest solution to this is just to have the brother buy a cheap shotgun locally.
dogtown tom
Member
The "temporary loan" means exactly that....you can let someone use your gun while you are in the same state. If you hand the gun to someone, leave the state...thats an illegal transfer of a firearm.
But hey, it's only a felony for each of you. No big deal.
MedWheeler
Member
dogtown tom writes:
Yes, that's exactly to what I was referring. I never said anything about leaving the state with it.
I said to gift it to him through the FFL channel. I don't know why that was unclear.
From post three:
Obviously (to most), that reads that, should there be laws prohibiting or regulating "possessing it again" (and there are), then he might want to reconsider the original transfer unless he's wiling to give up ever handling the gun again in his brother's state.
But I never suggested "a felony for you and a felony for him". The snarkiness is misappropriated.
It's the handing over of the gun to a non-state resident that makes it illegal. Leaving the state after having done so isn't necessary for the prohibition to apply.
Yes, that's exactly to what I was referring. I never said anything about leaving the state with it.
I said to gift it to him through the FFL channel. I don't know why that was unclear.
From post three:
Obviously (to most), that reads that, should there be laws prohibiting or regulating "possessing it again" (and there are), then he might want to reconsider the original transfer unless he's wiling to give up ever handling the gun again in his brother's state.
But I never suggested "a felony for you and a felony for him". The snarkiness is misappropriated.
It's the handing over of the gun to a non-state resident that makes it illegal. Leaving the state after having done so isn't necessary for the prohibition to apply.
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MedWheeler
Member
Theohazard writes:
You're not the only one to misunderstand post three, though you interpreted it differently than the other member who did.
I actually said, in post three, to GIFT him the shotgun, not loan it to him.
From post three:
My only mentioning of loaning the gun was addressing the idea of the OP having access to it should he return to his brother's house; his brother (the gun's new owner) could loan it back to him while he was there.
You're not the only one to misunderstand post three, though you interpreted it differently than the other member who did.
I actually said, in post three, to GIFT him the shotgun, not loan it to him.
From post three:
My only mentioning of loaning the gun was addressing the idea of the OP having access to it should he return to his brother's house; his brother (the gun's new owner) could loan it back to him while he was there.
For legitimate purposes...
WestKentucky
Member
Lets not beat around the bush. You want your brother to have something for defense. Good for you to look out for your brother, and good for him to have a brother who cares. The best option, and the simplest one is for you to figure out what a new gun will cost him and give him the money for him to buy the gun. The gun is his, will always be his until such time as he decides to sell it or give it away later at which point perhaps a very good deal can be found with an interested sibling... but for time being, the gun is his. Let him go buy the thing, fill out the 4473 and all and just be done with it. Doesn’t matter if it’s a pawn shop used gun, a new gun bought through academy, or whatever it has to be HIS GUN. You can legally gift money to anybody you choose, you cannot legally give a gun to any resident of another state. My suggestion is to send him a $250 academy, Walmart, rural king....gift card to buy whatever shotgun is in the $200 range and as much ammo as he can get with the difference. Key here ITS NOT YOUR GUN.
When multiple readers misunderstand your post that might suggest that you didn't communicate clearly. Communicating in writing often complex ideas clearly and precisely is a skill that doesn't necessarily come naturally. One needs to work at it.
And good communication is essential when discussing legal matters, because a misunderstanding can get one into serious trouble.
What? and spoil all the bantering?That would be to easy or just do a FFL transfer and be done.
Blackrock
Member
My brother lives in Montana and I live in Arizona and we have transferred several firearms back and forth between us over the last 20 years or so. All were long guns except for a handgun that was out fathers that I got when he passed away. These were either transferred as airline luggage or in a vehicle going back and forth between out respective residences. Right now there are two of Varmint rifles in his safe ready for me should I decide to do some Prairie Dog shooting while visiting.
Theohazard
Member
This is a public forum. I wouldn’t recommend openly admitting that you and your brother have committed many felonies over the last 20 years.
Blackrock
Member
No felonies committed here just free men living in free states. Face to face firearm transactions are still legal.
Theohazard
Member
Did you read any of this thread? Private face-to-face transfers between residents of two different states have been illegal on the federal level since 1968.
Sure, face-to-face transfers are still legal in each of your states, but only between residents of that state. You and your brother live in different states, so — per federal law — you must transfer firearms to each other using an FFL.
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You're completely wrong and have no clue. Under federal law transfers of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL. See post 6.
herrwalther
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That only works if both residents live in the same state in states that do not have a UBC law. Since the OP mentioned his brother lives in a different state in the title, an FFL is required to do things the legal way.
Elkins45
Member
They aren’t legal between residents of different states. You and your brother are one phone call away from prison terms and a lifetime loss of firearms rights. I hope you or he don’t make anyone angry who knows about your history of felonies.
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