Sturdy Safe vs. Browning Copper Gun Safe - Pondering...

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PowderKeg

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I've been looking into getting a gun safe and have pretty much narrowed down the choices to either a Sturdy Safe 2723 (60x27x23”deep) or a Browning Copper series (60x30x25”deep), both firelined. The Browning uses gypsum/fireboard, and the Sturdy uses a combination of ceramic and fiberglass wool insulation and a steel inner liner. The Browning is “rated” at 45 minutes; the Sturdy is not “rated” but does have an interesting testimonial/description of a total burndown on their website, as well as a lengthy discussion about firelining materials. Both lose @ 4” for interior width and weigh about the same (630 vs 615 lbs). Positives for the Sturdy include the 8 guage body, 1/4” door plate, and a simpler and theoretically more robust locking system. The Browning has a 12 guage body and 3/16” door plate, but is 3” wider on the inside. I'm also a little partial to the more open Sturdy #2 interior (customizing possibilities). The Browning is roughly $175 cheaper from the local Sportsman's Warehouse - both would have to be picked up (Browning at SW, Sturdy at the local shipper's dock).

http://www.sturdysafe.com/minuteman.htm

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/safes/detail.asp?cat_id=160&type_id=42736&value=002F

Right now I'm leaning heavily towards to Sturdy Safe, but I'd like to hear some comments about them from owners. Anyone have experience with Sturdy? Even better, someone with fire or burglary attempt experiences? Interested in opinions on the Browning too.
 
If you decide to go Browning, look at the "Yukon Gold" series at Sportsman's Warehouse instead of the "copper". They are also made by Browning (look at the lower right part of the door) and are half the cost, but are still 12 gauge, 3/16" door, firelined with gypsum. The only difference is cosmetic and who cares about that?

BTW, the interior of the Browning or Yukon Gold is completely removable. The middle support is locked in with a strip of velcro. Check it out.
 
Browning safes bother me. Many of their more expensive models are still made with 12 gauge steel and that's just unacceptable. Look for 10 gauge or thicker sidewalls.
 
I'd go with the Sturdy Safe based solely on the sexual appeal of their ads. :what:
 
Powder;

Neither the Sturdy nor the Browning are true safes. They are Residential Security Containers, or RSC's. From your description, the Sturdy would certainly seem to offer better burglary protection. However, what do the bolts lock up on? If neither one offers a plate steel frame, then there's not a lot of substansive difference. I can't speak to any difference in fire protection between the two. There probably is some, but what the actual time/temp differences are can't be determined without independant testing.

900F
 
Yep, the Sturdy Safe website is a step above the rest for visual enhancements, unfortunately I don't see her listed as an available accessory...

What the bolts lock up on is a good question. I would guess - like the other RSC gun "safes" I've seen up close - the bolts slide behind the door frame bend in the 8 guage body. Sturdy says the bodies are one piece with 12 bends - with four for the corners, that leaves 4 more on each side of the door opening (the door is recessed, not flush). Sturdy claims their door/bolt design clamps the door down as the bolts engage - I've seen some other brands with doors that still rattle/rock after being closed down - not tight by any definition. That's a good question though to add to the list for a future call. The Browning closed tight but uses a strip of U channel - presumably 12 guage like the body - attached inside door frame that the bolts slide against. It appears to be screwed in on the inside, not welded.

The biggest appeal to the Sturdy is that 8 guage body - I feel better about it than the 12 guage body of the Browning (I've ruled out any other safe with <10 guage body or with internal hinges). I also like the idea of using high temp insulation rather than gypsum board. If gypsum is such a great insulator, why do we have to add insulation behind walls (I know, apples-n-oranges comparison...). The appeal of the Browning is the slightly larger internal size (good to know the divider is easily removable if desired - didn't want to really yank on it in front of the SW salesman), and the fact that I can see what I'm buying. Dealing with Sturdy I won't really see/know what I'm getting until it arrives, which is a little late for second thoughts.

Thanks for the comments. Still hoping someone with a Sturdy will read/reply - would really like a first-hand opinion before finally commiting.
 
I went through this same analysis two years ago. I went with Sturdy and am very pleased. The service was excellent. The shippers damaged the handle and the dial but refused to fix it. They were functional but bent. I called Sturdy and they immediately mailed me new ones, no questions asked, for free. I think the invoice said about $20, but I don't remember. No charge to me as it was clearly waived for customer service. A very nice gesture. Also, I had some other excellent excellent excellent service related issues with them. One was a lengthy conversation that the knowledgable person, I think his name is Terry, had with me to explain in detail the merits of Sturdy safes over others. I won't go into the other service matter but I was very pleased with how helpful they were.

Finally, as far as the product, I'm extremely happy with the quality. It's very bare bones but that's what I like. It's very well built and the dial, locking mech, etc are just all done very well. The steel is smooth all around... it really is a nice safe at an afordable price without the unnecessary whistles and bells. The important stuff was the gauge steel, fire-lining (I think mine is rated for 90 minutes), and industrial grade lock.

I would definately buy one again. I think mine was about $1500 + shipping. If I remember right, to get the SAME quality of safe from another company it would have been 1/3rd more.

Good luck. And when you pick it up, my suggestion is to make some sort of really strong dial with 2x4 and wheels. These things are very hard to move, so bring several strong friends.
 
I also like the idea of using high temp insulation rather than gypsum board. If gypsum is such a great insulator, why do we have to add insulation behind walls (I know, apples-n-oranges comparison...).
Click to expand...

In reality, no gun safe on the market today can pass the UL standards when it comes to fireproofing. It doesn't matter what they use to insulate it with. If Sturdy's fireproofing was that good, they could submit their safe and be the only gun safe manufacturer to offer a UL rated product.

In the realm of fireproof safes, the vast majority of them use gypsum for insulation, and this has been the case for the last 100 years. It has been proven time and time again, that gypsum provides good and effective insulation. Of course, most of these safes use a gyspum based "concrete" and not sheet rock.

Moral of the story: Don't discount something simple like gypsum just because some newer high tech product is being touted. Some simple things have worked well for a very long time. Secondly, don't count on your gun safe to protect its contents from a fire, regardless of what type of fire barrier it uses.
 
CeeTee;

"Why are internal hinges bad?" Please do a search, I've explained it in threads here on THR more than once.

900F
 
Hi! Alyssa Pratt here!
Thanks for the sweet words about our website. www.sturdysafe.com. I built it myself. I made my photographer take the pics of me that are on there. I model in my spare time. As far as the comment about me being available... I am but I'm only 21 so no rush.

About Hidden Hinges:
Make sure hinges on the safes are heavy duty and allow for door removal, which is known in the industry as a "serviceable door". Don't be tricked into believing that exposed hinges are weaker or insecure. In fact, in most cases, exposed hinges are stronger and allow for easier removal and hanging of the door. Most hidden hinges are susceptible to damage simply by slamming the door open! Safes such as this should be avoided.
 
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About Hidden Hinges:
Make sure hinges on the safes are heavy duty and allow for door removal, which is known in the industry as a "serviceable door". Don't be tricked into believing that exposed hinges are weaker or insecure. In fact, in most cases, exposed hinges are stronger and allow for easier removal and hanging of the door. Most hidden hinges are susceptible to damage simply by slamming the door open! Safes such as this should be avoided
Click to expand...
External barrel type hinges are fine on any safe. Their only function is to let the door swing open when unlocked. In a good safe locking bolts are on all 4 sides of the door and keep the safe locked even if the hinges are cut off.
 
My reasons for not wanting internal hinges are:

- want the option to remove the door to lighten the load if/when moving. Also as stated above, if for some reason the locking cams/system/assembly needs to be repaired/replaced (like after a (hopefully) unsuccessful attack), the door can be removed and sent in (assuming no damage to the body).
- want to be able to swing the door completely open, rather than having it hang out into the room and partially block one side of the opening. Depending on how thick the door is, you can lose at least a few inches of access space through the door opening.
- the internal hinge gun safes I've seen up close so far have flush fitting doors; I want one that is recessed (not sure if all are this way, just the ones I've seen at the LGS and some GS).
- internal hinges can interfere with installation of fire lining (in the corner and/or around the hinge side of the door frame).
- of the ones I've seen, when I pushed on the door lightly when fully open, the door frame would actually flex outward slightly.
- can't see how well/solidly the hinges are attached to the body/frame - there's alot of weight in that door, and if the welder had a bad day.... With external hinges it's very obvious.

I wouldn't say that internal hinges are necessarily BAD - there's alot of safes out there with them - I just don't care much for what I've seen so far.
 
Hi! Alyssa Pratt here!
Thanks for the sweet words about our website. www.sturdysafe.com. I built it myself. I made my photographer take the pics of me that are on there. I model in my spare time. As far as the comment about me being available... I am but I'm only 21 so no rush.

About Hidden Hinges:
Make sure hinges on the safes are heavy duty and allow for door removal, which is known in the industry as a "serviceable door". Don't be tricked into believing that exposed hinges are weaker or insecure. In fact, in most cases, exposed hinges are stronger and allow for easier removal and hanging of the door. Most hidden hinges are susceptible to damage simply by slamming the door open! Safes such as this should be avoided.
Click to expand...

Ha!!!! You guys are so busted! This is by far the funniest thing I have read on this forum. I bet you guys are eating your shoes.

Welcome Alyssa and thanks for sharing your knowledge. It's nice to meet a pretty and intelligent women.
 
Fella's;

Most, if not all, units I see with internal hinges are also RSC's. That means sheet metal construction of the walls, floor and top. Warp that 12 guage box & then try to deal with hinges that are out of line & internal.

Don't call me to fix 'em, I have better things to do with my time.

900F
 
LoL, yeah it is pretty funny I caught you guys talking about me. I figured since my name was mentioned I would join in on this wonderful forum.

My father (Terry) can build anything out of steel. (I mean ANYTHING...u should see the boats he has built out of steel an pontoon)

He would only go with the desighn that worked the best for our safes. He can build a safe exactly how he wants it, and he could have had installed our safes to have hidden hinges if he wanted, but they are not a good design. Hidden hinges are more susceptible of breaking, and we make our safes last for generations, so it's a combination that just wouldn't work for us.

Terry does things like this toward all the safe options on the market when he built our safes. Our customers like options like having the pistols hang on the doors, but for the same reason mentioned above, he dosen't desighn our safe like that because there is a higher possibility your pistols will get damaged on the wall if you stuff your safe an slam the door.

You can have hinges and a fully recessed door seat (this will protect against pry-bar attacks). All our safes do.
 
In reality, no gun safe on the market today can pass the UL standards when it comes to fireproofing. It doesn't matter what they use to insulate it with. If Sturdy's fireproofing was that good, they could submit their safe and be the only gun safe manufacturer to offer a UL rated product.
In the realm of fireproof safes, the vast majority of them use gypsum for insulation, and this has been the case for the last 100 years. It has been proven time and time again, that gypsum provides good and effective insulation. Of course, most of these safes use a gyspum based "concrete" and not sheet rock.
Moral of the story: Don't discount something simple like gypsum just because some newer high tech product is being touted. Some simple things have worked well for a very long time. Secondly, don't count on your gun safe to protect its contents from a fire, regardless of what type of fire barrier it uses."
Click to expand...

In response to the quote above, we would get our safes tested, but what’s the point? They are biased tests. You can tell them to eliminate things like the time it take to cool down the safe as well as, the point of no return, (this means when the inside wall of the safe is hot enough to carry the inside temperature to combustion and there is nothing one can do to cool it down).
Would you spend $60,000 per safe, on a biased test, plus hand over 1 size of every safe, plus do it all over again in a couple of years to keep the rating? We are actually a small business manufacture, who was looking into getting it done, but it wasn't a real test.
We really tested our fire safes, in a real fire, and got real results. You can't beat that. Go to www.sturdysafe.com/fireproof.htm for some great shots of this test and why concrete drywall, or sheet rock (or whatever they try to call it) just don't work.

Ceramic wool has been used for a few generations so it’s not a new product.
Let common sence take over here. Would you choose an insulator made with recycled paper, or an insulator used for ovens?
 
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In response to the quote above, we would get our safes tested, but what’s the point? They are biased tests. You can tell them to eliminate things like the time it take to cool down the safe as well as, the point of no return, (this means when the inside wall of the safe is hot enough to carry the inside temperature to combustion and there is nothing one can do to cool it down). Would you spend $60,000 per safe, on a biased test, plus hand over 1 size of every safe, plus do it all over again in a couple of years to keep the rating?
Click to expand...

The UL testing is biased? It is the most recognized testing in the US, and is widely accepted by both federal agencies and insurance companies.

As a gun safe manufacturer, I would certainly make that investment. You would be the only one that would sell a UL rated product, which would carry substantial weight in the market place.

We are actually a small business manufacture, who was looking into getting it done, but it wasn't a real test. We really tested our fire safes, in a real fire, and got real results. You can't beat that. Go to www.sturdysafe.com/fireproof.htm for some great shots of this test and why concrete drywall, or sheet rock (or whatever they try to call it) just don't work.
Click to expand...

I'm the first person to admit that gun safes won't protect their contents in a fire. I'll also tell you that it's possible that a UL rated product will not protect its contents in pristine condition either.

What has been proven, is that any insulation that releases moisture to the interior of a heated safe will protect its contents better than insulations that do not release moisture. Ceramic wools are dry. I'm not saying they don't offer some degree of protection, but they will not provide the same protection that a standard gypsum based insulation on any common fire safe that carries a UL rating.

Does it provide the same or better protection as sheet rock? Maybe, or maybe not. Neither of them would pass the UL test, so it doesn't really matter. The majority of gun safes are not going to protect their contents in a substantial fire, regardless of what insulation they use.

Ceramic wool has been used for a few generations so it’s not a new product. Let common sence take over here. Would you choose an insulator made with recycled paper, or an insulator used for ovens?
Click to expand...

Common sense isn't so common anymore.

Instead of using common sense, why don't we use real life experience. I have been in the safe and vault business for over 15 years. I sell, service, install, repair, and open safes on a daily basis. I deal with everything from small imported fire safes to 20 ton vault doors. I have seen safe burglarized and burned. I have broken into many myself.

I can not speak for your company, but I can say that many gun safe manufacturers have no experience in the safe business at all. They build a product because it's marketable, and for no other reason. Because of this lack of experience, they build a product that is easily defeated, and sell them to unsuspecting consumers.

I will give credit to your company for using thicker steels than are commonly seen on gun safes. However, thicker steel is only one part of a very big equation.
 
Sturdy;

"In reality, no gun safe on the market today can pass the UL standards when it comes to fireproofing. It doesn't matter what they use to insulate it with."

If you'd like, I'll pass that comment on to the AMSEC & Graffunder companies. On the other hand, I'll give you the opportunity to retract the above statement here, on this thread, in the immediate future. Let's say by midnight Monday, July 2nd.

900F
 
That was my quote that Sturdy didn't format properly in their post.

Although Graffunder and AMSEC use some of the best fireproofing I've seen in gun safes, my statement stands. Neither company has received any rating from UL from a fireproofing standpoint.

Have they submitted them for testing? I have no idea. I would assume that AMSEC, being as large as they are, would certainly try to obtain whatever ratings they could on their products. Maybe their BF gun safe series was tested and failed, or maybe the engineers knew it didn't stand a chance from the beginning. Ironically, their smaller BF series, which appear to be built in a simliar fashion to their gun safes, carry both a UL 1 hour label in addition to a UL RSC rating. If a manufacturer could get a UL fire rating on their gun safes, they would truely have the multipurpose residential safe that so many manufacturers have claimed to have built.

Here's the problem with gun safes being fireproof. The best insulations on fireproof safes are moisture bearing. The moisture in these insulations will cause above average humidity issues within the safe. In order to protect the guns, you have to use insulations that do not contain as much moisture. As such, it reduces the ability to protect against fire.

The safe manufacturers are stuck in a catch 22, so they do what they can, cross their fingers, and hope for the best. I have seen gun safes survive fires. I have seen gun safes destroyed in fires. Some safes are built better than others, and some safes just luck out based on the circumstances of the fire.
 
Overall, it would be a waste of time. Not all of the damage will be a result of the heat itself.

Many gun safes have loose fitting doors and fire seals. The fire seals will not expand until the fire has reached the safe. By that time, hot gasses and steam have already been in the air, and penetrated the safe. I have opened safes the day following a fire (to let them cool off) to find guns that look like they have been on the bottom of the ocean for years.

Safes with tighter fitting doors are better at preventing this from happening, but they also cost more to produce.

If I was going to do one thing to help protect any safe in a fire, it would be to install a sprinkler head over the safe. Otherwise, having a properly rated safe for your use is the best option.
 
Fireproofing a gun safe is a waste of money. What will damage the guns in the safe is the very corrosive atmosphere of the fire ground..

Our shop gets 10-15 requests a year for restoring firearms from a fire. None in a safe have been destroyed beyond safety repairs but they are nearly monetarily destroyed do to the damage done by the corrosive environment of the fire.

Proection from heat is the least of the problem of fire.
 
Fella's;

Gezzer points out the futility of purchasing an RSC to protect a sizable investment. You get what you pay for.

The good safes, true rated safes such as the Graffunders, have intumescent seals on the door which swell 6 to 8 times under heat & seal the interior of the unit from the damage caused by corrosive gasses. The Graffunders use two seals set at ninety degrees to each other. The door of a Graffunder is fit flush and exactly to the frame. You can't get a credit card into the crack. The doors frequently exhibit an air-piston effect when closing.

Since the conditions of any uncontrolled burn are unique to itself, it's not possible to say that a given safe absolutely will protect against any fire. But you can sure improve the odds by buying something other than an RSC with a fire rating. I know of no national standard that RSC containers have to meet to be classified as having fire protection. You'll see Omega Labs, Pyro 3000, and other testing methods/laboratories cited, but until you know the exact testing procedure, you don't have enough information to make an informed decision about the protective qualifications. The makers aren't falling all over themselves to publish those procedures either.

900F
 
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