Super modified pistols, yet a poor shot

[GregGry]

Since I am doing better (been sick with strep/2 ear infections for the past 3 weeks) I figure I would share something that happened to me last week when I was at the range. A guy walked in to the range as I was shooting. He brought two huge black duffle bags, so big infact they made it hard to walk by. As he pulled out some sort of longslide pistol (might have been a glock) he started to talk with some guy (they might have been friends) that was to his right. They stood, talking outside of the range bays, for atleast 8 minutes (all the time making it hard for anyone to get by). The tactical guy was talking about how his gun has some supermodified parts, all this fancy stuff about the trigger and sights. Special mods he made to the trigger, and a bunch of other things that I don't have the slighest clue about. Thats all fine and dandy, I figured this guy was going to shoot a 1 hole group at 25 yards considering how much of a shooter he claimed the gun and he was.

Well he puts the target out to 25 yards, and on a 25yard circle target, he landed what appeared to be 5 to 7 shots (he must have shot atleast 15 rounds). I start to chuckle to myself, but I figured he might just be warming up or something. He brought his target back in, patched the holes, and sent it out. This time around 10 to 12 yards (the same distance I was shooting at). I shot my mag and then watched as he shot. I noticed his shots were all over the paper. No groupings, no one hole, no nothing. He was shooting at a normal pace too. My benelli shotgun has a better pattern at 25 yards (with its almost chokeless 18 inch barrel) then was on that guys target.

I just don't get it. I figured with all the gear he brought, and his talking about how the gun was such a shooter, that he would be some great shot. I guess I was halariously dissapointed. The good thing is when I manage to shoot a one hole group with my CZSP01, that people think I am some great shooter. Yet I am not remotely good lol.

 

[griz]

People have different skill levels. Some people who almost never shoot still like high end hardware. Look at the bright side, these folks are doing their part to keep the gun industry busy.

 

[Majic]

No matter how much is spent a poor shot will still be a poor shot. Plenty of people have tried to buy their way into being good shooters but it just doesn't happen that way.

 

[GregGry]

I completely agree. The thing is though, for as top shelf as he claimed the gun was, and as good of a shooter as he claimed he was, he didn't deliver. I like expensive hardware just like most, except if I shot as bad as he did, I would invest in some training

 

[GregGry]

No matter how much is spent a poor shot will still be a poor shot. Plenty of people have tried to buy their way into being good shooters but it just doesn't happen that way.

I agree. I have seen my buddy shoot shogun patterns with everything from a Wilson 1911 to a derringer.

EDIT: he still says its the guns

 

[Chipperman]

Buying a $5000 gun does not make you a better shooter any more than buying a Porsche makes you a better driver.

By the same token, I don't begrudge people who have the money and want to buy a really expensive gun, even if they are not a great shooter.

My problem is the people who get snooty about it and look down on someone else's gun because it "only cost $1000".

 

[Manedwolf]

A $200 German inking pen with precision flow control and pressurized cartridges won't make someone a better artist than a five-cent pencil would.

It's the skill, not the tools. Unless the gun is downright bent and shoots completely off, it's the hands holding it.

 

[ozwyn]

it proves a $500.00 gun and 1000.00 in training and practice beats a 1500.00 gun and no training/practice.

consider it a object lesson for new shooters. Practice and training are the best firearms investment.

 

[sumpnz]

You see this effect in almost any hobby or sport. My dad is an avid golfer. He tells stories about people who show up with the latest clubs (carbon shafts, titanium heads, etc) that cost a small fortune. Maybe spent $3000 on a set. But they "couldn't afford" lessons and so would shoot 104 for a round. And then there's my dad with his $500 set and $1000 in personal coaching (half as much in total as the other guy) under his belt shooting a 79.

 

[armedpolak]

two words

Mall Ninja... with rich parents, maybe ?

 

[mainmech48]

I don't know what causes it, naivete, wishful thinking, or just a sense of reality warped by years of TV and movie hogwash, but some folks seem to really believe that technology can be purchased which will miraculously compensate for whatever they happen to lack in skill or talent.

Somehow, the right combination of modifications, gadgets, or other Talismans of Expertise will eliminate the need to endure the tedious and labor-intensive process of perfecting basic skill sets through dedicated and systematic repetition in practice.

If buying the same rig that Rob Leatham, Ernest Langdon, or Jerry Miculek uses could magically make my times and targets look like theirs it'd sure save me a lot of time, frustrated introspection and ammo money.

 

[MechAg94]

IMHO, as long as your eyesight is good, shooting is more skill than talent or hardware (for the average shooter). I was not accurate or consistent when I bought my first pistol bigger than a .22. But, I got out and shot a lot because I enjoyed it. When I say a lot, I mean going out and shooting 300 or 400 rounds every 2 to 4 weeks. (that ain't much to some) I got better. I learned to shoot a little better and a little more consistently. I don't consider myself an expert at all, but I can shoot. I have been shooting my rifles mostly the last year or two, but I still made a big ragged hole for my CHL renewal. That kind of skill, once learned, tends to stay with you.

I think training would be a good idea though I have never done much more than what my Dad taught me. More important IMHO is Practice, Practice, and more Practice. For people starting out, I think I would stress training more than I did for myself. Beginner training at the least.

I am the same way with Golf. I was fortunate to be able to take a golf class in college and was able to learn the basic form and stance. However, I never play so my consistency sucks and I am doing very good to get under 110.

 

[BruceB]

I fully understand the motivation for this thread, and to a large degree I agree with the originator's observations. I'd like to make a point, though.

The "point" is this, hard-learned from my years in serious Bullseye competition: in Bullseye shooting, there are DEFINITELY some pistols which are demonstrably better than many others (for the specific purpose of making small groups at fifty yards, ONE-handed). They can also be very expensive.

Therefore, the rule of thumb among dedicated Bullseye shooters is "Buy the best gun you can afford." Doing this ensures that you will have an excellent trigger, sights with accurate adjustments, a slide/frame/barrel fit that allows the grouping you need, grips that FIT your hand, functional reliability, etc etc.

The reason behind the rule of thumb is simply that, by buying the very best you can afford, you minimize both potential gun problems and, more importantly, any sub-concious reservations you might have when shooting a "less-than-best-I-can-afford" gun. Believe me, serious target shooting is a mental sport, and whatever can be done to allow shooters to concentrate on personal physical and mental factors,should be done. This emphatically includes using the very best equipment possible.

However, in Bullseye competition the same situation exists as in the example which opened this thread. And, it's equally true in Bullseye, that "You can't BUY good scores!" Having excellent guns certainly can help in the effort to master the skills, though.

I'm absolutely sure that the reason one sees relatively few competitors on firing lines at serious paper-target matches is the reluctance of most of us to "let it all hang out" for others to see. We'd rather buy our wonderful firearms and TALK about how great they (and we) are!

 

[Edmond]

Look at it this way: when he keeps thinking it's the gun that isn't accurate, he'll get rid of the gun. And maybe you'll be the one to take it off his hands for much less since he'd be so eager to get rid of it.

 

[Justin]

Bruce, as a bullseye shooter, I completely agree. I would also add that your can expand your point to include any shooting sport.

Play any game long enough, practice hard enough, and you will eventually hit the point where the equipment is either holding you back, or you're performing well in spite of your gear.

Good gear doesn't cause good performance. It is simply a gateway to it.

 

[rchernandez]

You want to make sure your custom gunsmith is a master class shooter...


then you request him to "train" the gun to ONLY shoot at "X"'s



(my clark and I are still learning to communicate better...)

 

[doubleg]

I love people like that. I was recently at the range and listened to several people brag about their pistols. "I have a sig p220 customized its the best shooter ever blah blah". Then others began to brag about thier 2000 dollar guns. At the range they shot next to me. I put 25 rds in a 5 inch group at 30-35 yards with my 600$ dollar custom II. They were throwing rds all over the place not one group, their target looked like swiss cheese. Not to mention I had not shot the pistol for 2 months. It just proves its not the arrow it's the indian.

 

[Low-Sci]

I love it when people blame poor performance on their equipment. I've bought a number of paintball guns at bargain prices for exactly that reason.

The more people get frustrated with fancy guns, the better. Maybe if enough people do it, they'll get cheap enough where I'll have a shot at one.

 

[Geno]

Shooter V. Equipment

There have been precious few times where I could legitimately blame my equipment. In such cases, I switch out to an equal alternate. For example, if I suspected that my Kimber 1911 were screwed up, I picked up my Colt 1911. If I shoot well with one and not the other, now I know to investigate.

That said, I have no doubt that I have seldom been able to wring out the fullest extent of my firearms' inherent ability. I am not ashamed it it, rather challenged by it. It's what makes practice fun.

Edited to add: An alternate to "test" for equipment problems is to request someone else at the range to test-fire the questionable firearm for me. That, of course, carries the assumption that the person is an accomplished marksman.

Doc2005

 

[sargenv]

I have been at the range a few times with a new handload that I was expecting to be accurate and turns out, even with my heavily customized limited blaster, it turns out that the ammo was crap. I return to the range with proven ammo and I do better. This could have been the case. I've also been at the range when a friend of mine, a normally good shooter, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn that day. He finally had to sell the Sig 229 he had because he couldn't get it to shoot, even though me and another friend had no issues keeping it in the black at 25 yards. Sometimes you do good, other times, you can do all you like and still not be up to snuff. I like to think that's what happened.

Like the other people said though, he's keeping the cutom parts guys in the black because he's buying all this stuff.. Making it hard to maneuver around him wasn't cool, but then some people have no clue...

Vince

 

[BullfrogKen]

Comparing our skills to another's poor abilities doesn't make us better. C'mon fellas, how does ridiculing someone better us?


We don't know why he shot poorly that day.


After I take my Prednisone, I often shake terribly. About 18 months ago, I developed a side-effect related health condition that practically eliminated my ability to grasp anything with my right hand for a few weeks. I have $3000 1911's that I would get very frustrated shooting because, not only were my skills degraded from it, but I was in tremedous pain as well. It simply wasn't enjoyable at all.

That could be me beside you next time, shooting through pain, trying to do my best, but looking like a neophyte and dufus.


I'm locking this. It has no benefit for us to ridicule another.