Surplus Rifle Hunt, Part 2

[The Exile]

I recently posted asking about how hard it would be to find 8mm ammo since I'm looking to get myself a milsurp bolt action; and after trying things out in person at the local cabelas and chatting with the clerks like a couple of old church ladies for about 2 hours I came back knowing I don't like the Mauser. The couple they had in stock were some odd balls (1 Turksih, pre-1900 carbine, and a heck of a lot of sporterized Yugos) so I wouldn't judge the platform by those bolts specifically (though they were kinda rough) but I kinda hate Mauser sights so I'm moving on.

The other rifle I saw that I fell in love with immediately was a Springfield 1903, until I saw the price tag; maybe some day but not today.

Other than that what was on offer was a Lee Enfield Mk. 1 (US property if that makes any difference) and a heck of a lot of Mosins including a hex receiver. Between the two I could tell I would way prefer the Enfield, it was a little pricier (500~) but then again the Mosins were pricey for what I would want to pay for a Mosin (350 for your pick off the rack) but then the clerk showed me the price on .303 which was a pretty significant turn off.

So here's where I'm at right now, not sure what to do. Could buy the Lee Enfield Mk.1 and invest in some handloading gear down the line but not really shoot the gun much until then, I could just settle for a Mosin, or I could continue my hunt for an Ishapore which I saw once last time I was in but since then someone else jumped on it sadly. The Ishapore would be my ideal set up but it's not in stock, and I'm not really smart enough to find it online; not sure if it's just impractical to hold out looking for but I'll admit I'm not really the most knowledgeable about buying guns online. Any advice?

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

Have you looked into any of the 7x57 Mauser rifles? Ammunition is fairly common, recoil less then the 8mm. Or maybe a Spanish FR-8 in .308? Just putting that out there.

 

[gotboostvr]

Privi 180gr softpoints are $14/20 at SGA...
https://www.sgammo.com/product/prvi...h-180-grain-soft-point-prvi-partizan-ammo-pp3

I agree that I am not a fan of the original Mauser sights. Im not a big fan of Mosins in general either. I'd also love a Springfield too, the only thing holding me back being the introductory price.

I'd grab the Enfield and a case or two of ammo. Get plenty to shoot till you start handloading and save all the brass.

 

[IndianaBoy]

I am a bit surprised you didn't like the Mauser sights.

I am quite fond of tangent style iron sights for hunting use.


Be cautious of SAAMI spec commercial 8mm ammo. It is WAY underpowered because there are some older .318 bore mausers floating around and commercial stuff is loaded extra light to be safe in those guns.

I load my own. Much more pleasant than milsurp which is HOT in my experience. But oodles of power for deer. I like the 196gr Norma Oryx bullets.

 

[Random 8]

Unfortunately, you have entered the hunt at a very difficult time. Options for a quality surplus rifle are as follows: 1 Spend a lot of money (prices have been rapidly escalating for a few years, and show no sign of stabilizing), 2 get a less expensive/popular model (Turk, sporter/bubba, less desirable caliber, common such as basic Mosin Nagant), 3 get a decent rifle but in poor condition, 4 keep hunting and hope to luck onto a bargain.

If option 1 and 4 are off the table, and I would NOT recommend 3 unless you're up to rebarreling a Mauser with a junk bore and shopping/fitting some parts, get the Mosin Nagant. Pick a hex receiver that feels "tight" with bore condition being your highest priority. A good mosin M91-30 is a very under-rated rifle IMHO. Ammo is still inexpensive, and they shoot better than their price point would indicate. Consider the rest of 2 a strong option. At a decent gunshow, M1917s, M1903s and various SMLEs, sometimes even a Swede or Swiss can be had in post-Bubba configuration for under $300 and still be close enough to military condition to give you that milsurp feel. Pay close attention to the bore condition and having it checked out by a gunsmith is a good idea.

If option 1 is a possibility (and hopefully prices don't outstrip your savings), taking into account ammunition availability, you should really put your hands on a Finn M39 and see what you think. Outside of that, the Swedish M38 and M96 and the K-31 are picks of the litter, although ammunition will be pricey. They all use a blade front sight rather than the inverted V of most mauser models which has to be one of the worst front sight designs ever devised. The various Enfield models are nice too. You could continue the search for an Ishapore 7.62x51, but you will likely have to go beyond Cabelas. Best of luck in your hunt.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Plenty of Ishapores on Armslist.

Hard to go wrong with a Mosin Nagant.

The FR8 Mauser, in addition to being chambered for .308, has one of the best rear battle sights ever, with easy click-adjustable peep apertures for different ranges-


If you dont like regular Mauser sights you'll hate the M1903 ladder sight- its actually way more complicated (and delicate). However, the later M1903A3 has excellent peep sights and the receiver is generally made of better steel as well, early '03s can be dangerously brittle.
Here you see the '03(left) versus '03A3 (right) rear sights.

 

[mustanger98]

At this moment, the top choices I see are...

1)U.S. 1903A3 (.30-06)
2)"U.S. PROPERTY" Enfield No4 Mk1 (.303 British, produced by Savage for the Lend/Lease program)
3)Spanish FR-8 (7.62x51/.308)

You can buy ammo for all three. You can handload for all three. You can enjoy all three. For the big picture, you can't go wrong with either of the three. Except maybe some price tags. After that, which one fits you best?

 

[boom boom]

Bargains in military surplus bolt action rifles are still around but you won't get them in bulk quantities anymore. Nightlord40K and Random 8 make some good points. If you like peep type sights, then No. 4 Enfields, FR8's based on Spanish Large Ring Mausers, 03A3 Springfields, MAS 36's, or even the 1917/P14 rifles have them as issued. If you like open sights, then most of the rest of the military bolt action rifles used them in one format or the other.

You haven't said what your projected use for the rifle is but if you plan to take it hunting every now and then, you can pick up sporterized versions (leaving aside the fine works of art with $1500 stocks and complete reworkings) for about half of one in military trim. It won't appreciate much beyond what the parts will bring but sporterized Enfields, Mosins, Springfields, Mausers, are out there in quantity. Just don't expect modern bolt action accuracy to apply to these old warhorses but some will surprise you with the load they like. The sportered versions will also be a bit lighter to tote, may have shorter and more responsive barrels, and already be tapped or have scopes.

For a collectible, get something that you would enjoy shooting and avoid the really odd rifles that might be quite nice but require handloading or esoteric caseforming etc. If you want factory ammo and not to have to reload, then that will naturally limit your initial choices and dabbling in using old surplus ammo is something that is best left to folks used to its idiosyncracies and potential dangers. Handloading expands your choices quite a bit and many of the rifles that might not quite cut the grade in fmj accuracy anymore can do quite well with cast bullets sized to fit their bores.

Regarding military rifles, most in shootable shape are bringing $400 or so in good or better condition if all of the parts are there and the rifle is unmolested (no cut stocks, missing handguards, etc.). Mosins have almost reached that mark with hex receivers but the rougher wartime rifles are a bit cheaper. Mosins make a fine start as you can generally get them in better shape due to most being rearsenaled before putting them into storage. Enfields follow close behind and I would consider the NO. 4 mk 1 or 2 to be a fine starter rifle (course that is how I got started messing with these in the first place) that you could get a good shooting model for around $350-400. The U.S Savage made always get a bit of a premium because of their markings but any of the No. 4 makers did decent work. You might also come across some that have the FTR mark which means that these rifles were gone through and parts replaced to bring them back to original specifications by the Brits at a factory. Once you get to $500 or so, you begin to get more options and most military bolt action rifles in collectible condition apart from scarce variants can be obtained for less than $1000. Semi Auto Garands and M1 Carbines are now pricey and the Garands are best acquired through the CMP and the M1 Carbines whenever you see one at a decent price that is not slagged. Those start about where the higher end of the bolt action mass market is.

The last is restoring old bubba'ed rifles with parts which is one of the things that I do but I would not recommend as it is getting pricey as parts dry up and most people want to shoot their rifles instead of waiting several years to get the necessary parts accumulated to restore one. These will never appreciate beyond the sum value of their parts but if you like gunsmithing and problem solving, these can provide an education in changes of the military rifle and its functioning. This method can give you access to getting rifles that you normally could not afford at the risk you may not want to shoot. If you go this route, be sure to collaborate with a gunsmith who knows their military surplus rifles and I honestly could not have accumulated some of the rifles that I have without my local gunsmith's doublechecking my work and dealing with tricky situations that I'd rather not do such as requalifying a barrel.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I think the very best bolt action milsurps are the P14/P17 rifles. Good peep sights and bomb proof action.

A P17 in 30-06 would be perfect for shootability and ammo availability.

 

[boom boom]

BTW, the sporterized Yugos can be made into decent rifles as the m48 is a tough postwar Mauser and the 24/47's are their more elegant sister. Either in a .308 would be a decent deal if the barrel was good and the 8x57 Mauser is not a bad round either. The key to working the m48 action though is to operate the bolt like you hate it. Strange saying but true--these actions are not the silky smooth Czech or German from the prewar to early WWII.

 

[boom boom]

I think the very best bolt action milsurps are the P14/P17 rifles. Good peep sights and bomb proof action.

A P17 in 30-06 would be perfect for shootability and ammo availability.

I like them too and have both. The P14 is ridiculously overbuilt for the .303 but the 1917 Rifle is just right for the .30-06 using WWI type 150 gr loads.

 

[Skylerbone]

If you prefer to handle them in person, browse the Cabelas Gun Library and have your candidate shipped to the store. It may cost a few dollars but worth it to avoid disappointment.

With reloading; it may be that you shoot something far more frequently which could pay for itself by reloading. For me, .223 and .45 ACP are dies that pay for themselves (assuming you don’t increase volume drastically) meaning the price of reloading equipment could be easily recouped and you could afford a modest amount of factory loads for .303 while accumulating brass.

A simple $40 Lee will do and their die sets include dippers for measurement. A perfect $80 combo to get you started, and a caliper.

 

[Conelrad]

Enfields (No. 1 Mk 3 and No.4 Mk 1 and 2) are excellent choices. .303 Brit is easily available, and a bone stock or sporterized gun will take any game in North America.

The Enfield bolt cocks on closing, and nothing else feels that good in a bolt gun. Plus, it is a mag fed rifle.

There are several in Phx metro gun stores right now for $400 or so.

The No.5 Jungle Carbine isn't known for accuracy like the regular rifles.

Conelrad

 

[Random 8]

I notice you are in MN. You should shoot me a PM, I might have something for you, but it might violate forum rules to say I DO have something for you, so I am not saying that. Ammunition for what I "might" have won't be especially cheap, but it is readily available.

 

[The Exile]

.You haven't said what your projected use for the rifle is

Sorry about that, for me this would just be owning a little slice of history; going out to the range and yelling "take this Jerry!" in an exaggerated British/Russian accent, laughing with friends, and punching holes in paper, cans, jugs, etc.

 

[mustanger98]

Hmmm... well, I recall a few years back reading about "Battle of the Bulge" matches where some guys dress period-correct, wallow in snow and shoot any rifle representative of those on the western front. They said something about it being in memory. I imagine a good many veterans of that battle, for a variety of reasons, said something like "ummm, you did what?"

 

[Bwana John]

Ya the sights suck, but it's a Mauser! (In 6.5, 7, 7.65, 8, or 30)

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I have to add a +1 for the Yugo M48 Mauser. I’d love to have an Enfield, or Springfield, but I just couldn’t afford the ones I was finding. The M48 is still affordable, and is built like a tank. Most of them were packed away in Cosmoline not long after they were built, so they are virtually new. They have very little historical value unless you count being used in some of the Yugoslavian breakup wars, but they are a good solid Mauser action rifle in 7.96x57; which is a very underrated and versatile round. I’d love for another wave of imports to come through so they’d be a little more plentiful.

 

[boom boom]

Sorry about that, for me this would just be owning a little slice of history; going out to the range and yelling "take this Jerry!" in an exaggerated British/Russian accent, laughing with friends, and punching holes in paper, cans, jugs, etc.

The M48 is a close cousin to the German 98k Mauser except the receiver is a bit shorter (intermediate action) which is fine for the stubby 8x57 Mauser.

But, if you do not like playing "Jerry", then get the Enfield in either the No. 1, MK 3 (old SMLE) or the WWII era No. 4, Mk. 1 (or its postwar variants and rebuilds) or the Mosin in hex or round receivers (if you want history, get the WWII made otherwise, the prewar Mosins are nicer in fit and finish). The Enfield has a ten round mag if that counts on either variant and the No. 4 has the peep sights you are looking for or if you have the battle sights, you can get the so called Singer sight pretty easily.

In American rifles, if you can, look for a 1917 U.S. Rifle, aka P17 which has the peep sights and the action was used a bit in WWII for rear echelon troops and to arm allies. It will be a bit more expensive but prices on these are climbing. Having both the 1917 and the 1903/03a3 variants, the Springfield has cleaner lines, the actions are slick, and the 03a3 has a superb peep sight, but the 1917 is one tank of a rifle and as accurate as the issued (not star gauge national match types) Springfields. The stock and safety are better on the 1917 as well than the bloody nose straight stocks found on a lot of Springfields. It is equal to the pistol grip Springfield stock.

 

[Bfh_auto]

The Turk was my first rifle. There long sight plane made it easy to shoot well. The Mauser sights seem odd, but work well.
The Springfield would be choice number 2 for me.

 

[MacAR]

I only got one word for ya: SPRINGFIELD! Beg, borrow, or steal the means to get your hands on one, you won't regret it.

Failing that, the Lee Enfield is a wonderful rifle, with a lovely action and most specimens are surprisingly accurate. The ammo isn't as pricey as you'd think either.

Good luck on your search!

Mac

 

[Slamfire]

A M1917 rear sight, it was really good for the period.



A wartime No 4 MKI* rear sight. It was cheap to make. If my memory is right, it was a 300/600 arrangement and attaching the bayonet made it zero at 200 yards.



This was a more adjustable version of the No 4 rear sight

 

[Ironhand54]

One more vote for the P17. I have had 2 in the past. Great gun, cheap ammo and fairly accurate. Used to play "roll the bowling pin" with one in my younger days.

IronHand

 

[BigBore44]

You’re not finding the guns because “you’re not smart enough to shop online”. Well, you can get smarter with a little time. Or you can pay premiums. I’ll tell you what I’ve purchased like what you’re wanting in the last year and what I’ve paid.

1. 30-40 Krag carbine=$600
2. 30-40 Krag custom= $500.
3. 1903 A1= $600
3. 1903A3=$450
4. German Mauser 8mm= $300
5. German Gewehr unmolested all numbers matching $375 (stole that one).
6. Lee Enfield #1 Mark 1, 3 and #4 Mark 1. All original =$400, $450, $475 in that order.
7. Winchester #’s matching Garand $650 (not a CMP).
8. P-14 numbers matching $550.

Found them all online except for the Garand. I found it at a big monthly auction about 8 miles from my house. And they are all in fantastic condition.

A buddy of mine just picked up a Krag custom sporter for $230 on an auction site. $35 shipping. And it’s in fantastic shape.

You want a deal? They’re out there. All you have to do is “be smart enough” to look.

 

[fpgt72]

IMHO anything you look at from WWII aside from 3006, the ammo costs are going to be on the high side....past WWII unless it is 308. Again I think if you are going to want to play with these old guns you are going to need to learn to reload, or you are going to be spending some money on factory ammo. Even in some of the flavors brought up like 7mm mauser the cost per box is going to be $20+....things like a Krag $30+ and it is just going to go up from there.

Reloading is not that hard....and it is really fun.

As to the guns you are looking at, the US property marked enfield is a lend lease gun likely a savage. Some people like that.

You say you want it to own a slice of history.....then I would say get what you really want.....something you want to dig into, and whatever you really want to experience. At this stage I would put the ammo in a distant second place. But you want it to be something you are interested in.....if it is not it will not scratch the itch.