Survival Enterprises, how the ATF screwed them, and no one knew or cared

[PvtPyle]

If he did everything the articles said, then he was accused of breaking unconstitutional, invalid laws.

Does that change your opinion at all?

It's a separate matter whether he would be a good "poster child," deserving of our support to further our political goals. I think there are better choices for that.

Perhaps he's not wearing the white hat, either. Maybe he wasn't paying as much attention to the laws as the rest of us do.

That doesn't make those laws, or BATFE, right.

Well, as a poster child for doing it their way (as in, I will play by their rules but try to keep those rules fair and effect change on the ones that are not thru the due process) all I can say is, if that was the choice he made don't be a big friggin cry baby when you get your winky smacked and say everyone else has abandoned you. If you are going to play that way, be prepaired to pay the price.

If you dont want to pay the price for playing that way, play by the rules. Even if you dont like them, well they are the rules and loosing can be a heavy price to pay.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

The problem here is lack of info, not taking sides.

 

[s&w 24]

soo how many THR members actualy get of the lumpy buts and help others in the gun biz when they need help!!

If we as a community do not assist one another you are all screwed! Death by a thousand cuts.

 

[MechAg94]

How am I supposed to help those in the gun biz who need help? What is it you want me to do? I don't have enough money to pay for the guy's lawyer. Are we supposed to set up a High Road Help Line for down on their luck dealers?

We never hear about most of these people until too late. This guy already plead guilty.

Honestly, I tend to agree with Private Pyle about the rules.
Other than that, I give to the NRA who does actually help some people.

 

[billwiese]

I read the dude's original "woe is mine" screed a year or so ago. Eventual reposts changed some details as I recall.

He was either stupid, or acting in bad faith, or (likely) both. No one buys an NFA gun in an old warehouse in Reno without paperwork/proper ATF transfers, he wasn't apparently an NFA dealer, etc - and that's really what the crux of this was (approximate details recalled from his own words).

I agree all gun laws are useless, stupid and anti-freedom. But for this dude to say he was an innocent lamb is totally untrue.

He got a deal too good to be true and jumped at it and shoulda known it was 'bait'.

Not only that, the guy was so stupid as to publish his stuff after arrest but before trial, and too stupid to get a good lawyer.

Too stupid to breathe, too dumb to die...


Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[rangermonroe]

Damn Him to hell, he plead guilty!

When I had my troubles with Ny State, I consulted a friend of mine (Superior court judge here in GA).

After his astonishment abated (that I was charged at all) he offered his counsel.

I was full of righteous indignation and vigor. FWIW, I believe that I did no wrong, and although ileagle there, was not worth the "throwing of the book."

(CCW, no reciprocity...very broadly)

I was going to fight this. "Jury will see through this B.S. ...The state will hate me soon, I wont roll over!", etc. I was gonna fight the good fight.

I called the NRA, I called JPFO. I received nothing.

I joined this site, and similar others. I was condemned.

I called GOA, and while they offered no support, they did give me a ph# to a paralegal who had extensive knowledge of cases like mine.

If I fought, I would get a year in jail. Provided with cases to back it up.

Run away, $100 fine.

Both my judge friend, and the Lady in Ny offered the same advice. The only folks that told me to fight till my dying breath, were us on line.

Nobody offered to help pay my airfare, let alone help for legal defense.

Leave this guy alone for taking the plea.

 

[rangermonroe]

He got a deal too good to be true and jumped at it and shoulda known it was 'bait'.

Bait.

Bait to avoid a $200 tax.

I certainly hope that none of us on this board have attempted to avoid $200 in taxes.

Of course, that would be illeagle. And he got what he deserved.

 

[JohnBT]

"soo how many THR members actualy get of the lumpy buts and help others in the gun biz when they need help!!"

Others? The honest folks or the lawbreakers? I can't afford to finance everybody's foolishness.

The guy took a plea agreement and then sold a bunch of his stuff. Why didn't he sell a bunch of stuff first and pay a lawyer? I dunno. I know I would have. Why wouldn't his friends (or family if he had any) front him the money for a lawyer. Mine would have.

All we know is that it's too late.

John

 

[Spiphel Rike]

I can't believe you Americans let an agency like this exist. I've told people here in AUS some things that the BATFE have done and they were disgusted by it.

Their existence is an affront to the bill of rights.

 

[dfaugh]

He with the most money wins

I won't even question whether this individual broke any laws, or whether they were constitutional or not.

But the phrase "You can't fight city hall" come to mind?

I've been there/done that on a non-gun related local issue with my town. And was told by multiple lawyers that I was right, the law was unconstitutional, and I would prevail in court---and it would ONLY cost me about $20,000 to fight it. Right or wrong, the government has the deck stacked in their favor, as they have virtually unlimited resources to attack/harass/prosecute/persecute an individual.

But I agree that support from most of the "gun rights" groups is inadequate. They're too busy soliciting donations, and "lobbying" than to address a PIVOTAL case. If they ONCE stood behind a legitimate case (and, again, not sure about this one) to set a precident, alot of the abuse would stop.

 

[emitt1]

Amen, Spiphel Rike - Well said and true.

 

[steelhead]

"I can't believe you Americans let an agency like this exist. I've told people here in AUS some things that the BATFE have done and they were disgusted by it.

Their existence is an affront to the bill of rights."


Not that I disagree, with your statement, but I find it kind of ironic - considering your own country's stance/history on gun control.


"Current firearm laws in Australia

The possession and use of firearms in Australia is governed by laws specific to each state or territory. However, there is much common ground due to the coordination of legislation in response to the National Firearms Agreements (see below). Anyone in Australia wishing to buy, own, or use a firearm is requried to have a valid Firearms Licence, issued by the relevant state or territory government. Further, anyone applying for a firearms licence must be able to provide secure storage facilities (such as a sturdy, lockable gun cabinet/gun safe made from steel or solid timber and bolted to the wall or floor), and have a "genuine need" to own firearms. To buy a gun a person must be over 18 years of age and to have a gun licence they must also be over 18 years of age unless supervised.

The accepted "genuine needs" are:

Membership of a hunting or target shooting club (such as the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia)
Collecting (Collectors must generally be members of a recognised historical society, and are not generally permitted to fire their weapons except at police-authorised events)
Military re-enactment (Same conditions as Collectors)
Occupational requirements (Farmers and professional pest shooters, security guards, armourers/gunsmiths, members of the various police forces, members of the military and theatrical ordnance are the main occupations eligible for this)
For each firearm a licenced person wishes to buy, they must obtain a Permit To Acquire (also known as a Permit To Purchase in some states), which (as the name suggests) is effectively written permission from the appropriate authority to purchase and acquire a firearm. With each firearm acquisition a "Genuine Reason" must be stated, usually relating to the type of competition in which the person intends to use the firearm, the type of game they wish to hunt with it, or why the firearm should be considered "collectible".

Firearms in Australia must be registered. This is usually done at the time of purchase, when the gun dealer forwards the relevant section of the Permit To Acquire to the appropriate authority, notifying them that the permit has been used and that the licenced person has taken possession of the firearm involved."

 

[rbernie]

I can't afford to finance everybody's foolishness.

That's a fact.

I have no issues contributing to the defense of somebody who was arguably acting within the letter of the law and who is being maliciously prosecuted. I have no problems with someone asking in advance for defense money so that they can deliberately break the law to enable a legal challenge to the law. I *do* have a problem with folks acting like I have to subsidize their foolishness after-the-fact, and questioning my commitment to the RKBA based upon the fact that I generally refuse to reward ignorance.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The NRA does get involved in these types of cases all the time. I don't know all the facts in this case; but the fact that the NRA, GOA, SAF, and JPFO all declined to help out seems to speak pretty loudly to me. It makes me think that a bunch of different pro-gun lawyers looked at this case and thought "This guy is absolutely going to get convicted no matter what we do."

 

[Caimlas]

He pled guilty.

People in this situation are going to have to gut it out and fight, or get out of the gun business if they don't have it in them to do that.

We can't do a damned thing for a man who won't fight.

Maybe you missed the place where he said they were holding his wife and son hostage, and would completely ruin their futures if he didn't comply. A felony charge alone, without a conviction, can ruin a person's life.

One word: blackmail.

 

[billwiese]

Maybe you missed the place where he said they were holding his wife and son hostage, and would completely ruin their futures if he didn't comply. A felony charge alone, without a conviction, can ruin a person's life.

And you missed his drama-queen screed and his orig posts quoted in FreeP a year or so ago.

It's a family-run biz, and the other parties may well have had a degree of guilt as well. They appear to be 'country boys' that got real casual with the law, lived in a little little bubble of their own (i.e., survivalist colloidal silver sales, etc.) and it bit 'em. From his posts you can tell readin' & writin' ain't his strong points, so it's clear he shoulda been wary.

The average dude walking down the street knows you shouldn't buy a full auto SMG in the back of a warehouse in Reno without paperwork. This guy failed that test.

As I recall they got him on a range of valid violations, topped off by the illegal acquisition of an NFA firearms. (He was an FFL as well and, IIRC, had issues with those matters as well.) His original 'woe is me' posts quoted on FreeP forum basically appeared to be an admission of guilt post-arrest, pre-trial. So we really confirmed he was stupid, too.

As I recall, he was busted around the same time frame (2004ish) some idiots at the Big Reno Show were selling ARs, etc. that were not in compliance with the 1994 Fed AWB. I would frequently and politely tell these dudes, "Hey, this ain't quite right and it's a violation, can't have preban features, yada yada..." A couple of them told me "Relax, they ain't bustin' for that..." (approx. wording).

One of the guys that told me the above was one of the guys busted in 2004 for various AW violations. He plead out to multiple felonies right before the sunset of the Fed AWB occurred in Sep 2004.

We gunnies have enough legit fights with unwritten law - along with arbitrary & capricious regulatory matters (as we are dealing with in CA right now), as well as technically incompetent regulatory agencies & prosecutors - that to worry about stupid folk doing stupid things is a waste of time.

This guy asked for what he got. Not only was he stupid, he got stupider as time went on and dug himself further in the hole. (He talked, publicly and privately, about his case without lawyer.) His case was "easy pickin's" for a prosecutor.


Also note, as Bartholemew Roberts states above, that NRA *does* get involved in cases - when the cases are winnable, the guy didn't do anything wrong but a false position is held by prosecution, etc. They are being particularly helpful in CA right now against the DOJ Firearms Division's recent handwaving, and some AW cases that have popped up.

But no one wants to waste precious NRA funds for "please convict me" idiots like the Survival Enterprises guy. He violated clear and well-known laws and gave folks an open & shut case.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[s&w 24]

I have yet to here of the NRA or most of the other gun rights groups actualy helping out there members when they are in legal trouble. Why am I sending my money to the NRA when they don't help there members or even pitch in on state issues!

 

[buzz_knox]

Why am I sending my money to the NRA when they don't help there members or even pitch in on state issues!

Where did you hear the NRA doesn't help with state issues? They worked to get the castle doctrine passed in states that lacked it, along with CCW.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I have yet to here of the NRA or most of the other gun rights groups actualy helping out there members when they are in legal trouble

Then I guess you didn't click on the link I provided which gives three examples just from Minnesota and quite a few more from across the U.S. Here is that link again since you seemed to have missed it:
http://www.nradefensefund.org/litigation.aspx

If this is the type of work you want the NRA to do more of, you can make contributions just for this type of work here:
https://www.nradefensefund.org/contributionsnew.aspx

These contributions are also tax-deductible, unlike your membership dues, NRA-ILA, or NRA-PVF donations.

Also, let me repeat yet again - if all you are doing is paying your membership dues, you shouldn't be complaining about the NRA not doing more. By charter (and in some cases federal law), the NRA is limited in what it can do with membership dues. Mostly those dues are used to promote firearm safety, competitions and ranges.

If you want your money to go for lobbying specific legislation on Capitol Hill, you need to donate to the Institute for Legislative Action (NRA-ILA).

If you want your money to go for electing pro-gun political candidates, you need to donate to the Political Victory Fund (NRA-PVF).

If you want your money to do to defending citizens and ranges from baseless lawsuits and unwarranted criminal charges, you need to donate to the NRA Civil Defense Fund.

Why am I sending my money to the NRA when they don't help there members or even pitch in on state issues!

The NRA stands for the NATIONAL Rifle Association, though they do help state groups all the time despite this. If you want to concentrate on state issues, I recommend you join your state-level RKBA organization. I am a member of the Texas State Rifle Association myself, as well as the NRA. The TSRA protects me in Austin. The NRA protects me in Washington DC.

 

[BigO01]

Just my opinion here but I read where his wife had a license to own full autos yet he buys one without any paper work and has a shotgun that also requires special licensing and taxes to be paid on it to be owned legally .

You read where this one last gun show was going to be their big Swan Song and they were going to retire .

Sounds like they thought they could play slick and get away with not having these guns legally because they expected to sell them quickly and perhaps thought they could make a few more bucks on the deal by NOT paying those fees and taxes and get away with it .

If this is the case they are guilty as sin and the Progun groups wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole due to this .

Progun groups not only have limited funding for such things they also have their credibillty to protect . They can't simply take every single case because somone screams their rights are being violated . Thats kinda like taking a poll of a prisons death row asking the inmates if they did the crime , how many are going to admit they are guilty when they still have wiggle room to play with ? They would quickly lose what political clout they have if they start defending those people that did indeed break the law .

Even those that hold FFL's are people and people do stupid things thinking they can get away with it even if it is just once , and they all scream about their rights when they get nabbed by the cops .

Just my .02

 

[s&w 24]

O.K. I guess I'm just taking this a little too personal as I know several people left out in the cold by the gun rights crowd. I've also seen alot of people talk big and give nothing on firearms forums. If we as a community don't help each other
all of us will be without rights of any sort.

 

[Spiphel Rike]

The prime minister of Australia having a vendetta against guns before I was old enough to vote might have something to do with the stupid laws we have.

Just because they're on the books over here doesn't mean I agree with them. I hope not too many of you guys agree with the anti-gun laws of your own country