Switched to a revolver for ccw...

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Just about every single one of your examples referenced a law enforcement shooting.
Why would that matter? The duties of the LEO and the civilian are different, and that affects what leads up to deadly force encounter, but once the shooting starts, the events are analogous.

but there seems to be an unexplained discrepancy in why there aren't several stories where revolver carriers were wounded or killed because they chose not to carry a semiauto. Why do you think this is? Can you explain it?
What is it that makes you think that it has not happened? Do you somehow believe that the particulars of every murder case are recorded by people who might understand and be interested in those kinds of details, and that they are compiled and made available for searches?

Well, they are not.

One would have to sit through trials in the courts of the thousands of US counties and listen carefully to days of testimony for any mention of whether and when anyone's firearm went dry and so on. the cases would not revolve around such trivia.

I know fo two small datasets in which the distances, the number of rounds, the number of attackers , and the outcomes have been compiled. One is contained in the Rangemaster DVD "Lessons from the Street." The other is an old report compiled some years ago by a law enforcement department in another Tennessee city.

We do see accounts from Massad Ayoob and perhaps a few others who were introduced as expert witnesses in a very small number of trials, and they are interested in such aspects. But they cannot say anything about them until things have been completely settled--including risks of civil action.

Keep in mind, millions of L.E. and civilians for decades till this day respectively have been carrying revolvers...
I don't know about "millions", but carrying and using firearms are two different things.

I don't see any revolvers in LEO holsters these days.
 
Kleanbore, all your post have convinced me. Convinced me that I want another Revolver. I keep getting that urge to get that Kimber, or the New Colt King Cobra.I fell in love with the Colt when holding it at a trade show. Also liking the SP101 in 9mm. especially since I love my LCR in that caliber. Too many nice guns, too little money.
 
Kleanbore, all your post have convinced me. Convinced me that I want another Revolver. I keep getting that urge to get that Kimber, or the New Colt King Cobra.I fell in love with the Colt when holding it at a trade show. Also liking the SP101 in 9mm. especially since I love my LCR in that caliber. Too many nice guns, too little money.

I really liked the Kimber when I fondled it (and I'm not much of a revolver guy anymore), when I find a 3" one with an exposed hammer it will likely be mine.
 
I will throw a bone to the revolver folks...

The chances of 1) Being involved in a self-defense situation, 2) having to actually fire your weapon in a self-defensive situation, and 3) Having to engage multiple attackers or use all 5 or 6 rounds, is so mathematically minuscule for the vast majority of CCW holders that I can't fault anyone for thinking that merely having any firearm handy is good enough.
 
On the topic of newbies buying carry guns..

My wife's good friend recently decided to get her ccw. She called my wife and asked her for some help in choosing a firearm, which turned into a conference call between the 3 of us... She isn't ignorant shooting guns (mountain raised country girl), just new to carrying.

We advised her to get snubby 38 and very clearly explained why that was the best choice...malfunctions, mag loading, contact shots, etc.

Due to her budget, I specifically recommended an LCR, but told her that I believe steel guns are better for several reasons so check out the 640 also... Very lightweight guns are harder to shoot, painful to practice with, and entirely overrated in my opinion... Learned that with my wife, who carries a model 60.

So off to the gun store she went.... And she came back with a polymer 380 (SCCY 380) that she can't fully load the mags for, isn't accurate with, and it hasn't been fully reliable in her hands.

She let the gun store talk her into the flavor of the week instead of what she really needed... gun shop clerks should take thier jobs more seriously, peoples lives are sometimes in their hands.
 
On the topic of newbies buying carry guns..

My wife's good friend recently decided to get her ccw. She called my wife and asked her for some help in choosing a firearm, which turned into a conference call between the 3 of us... She isn't ignorant shooting guns (mountain raised country girl), just new to carrying.

We advised her to get snubby 38 and very clearly explained why that was the best choice...malfunctions, mag loading, contact shots, etc.

Due to her budget, I specifically recommended an LCR, but told her that I believe steel guns are better for several reasons so check out the 640 also... Very lightweight guns are harder to shoot, painful to practice with, and entirely overrated in my opinion... Learned that with my wife, who carries a model 60.

So off to the gun store she went.... And she came back with a polymer 380 (SCCY 380) that she can't fully load the mags for, isn't accurate with, and it hasn't been fully reliable in her hands.

She let the gun store talk her into the flavor of the week instead of what she really needed... gun shop clerks should take thier jobs more seriously, peoples lives are sometimes in their hands.
I can tell a story about a woman I watched struggle with an SP during a one day handgun class, she couldn’t handle the DA pull, reloading individual cartridges was painful to watch(took her forever) and accuracy was non existent.

After about an hour the weight of the gun was affecting her, the RO tried to get her to switch to a plastic 9mm but she just kept saying her male friend told her a revolver is what she needed.
 
My 12 year old son handles his 4" SP101 just fine, for hours at a time ...

20-27 ounces just isn't heavy ... If it is ,there are other issues at play.

And if they can't hold up 20 ounces, no way they're gonna load a magazine.
 
Lots of articles talk about how much harder snubs are to shoot accurately than semi autos....

I must be odd, because the opposite is true for me, that's why I made the switch, I found out that I can shoot the wheel gun faster and more accurately.

And it is not a lack of practice with the semi autos, I have fired many thousands of rounds out of a few Glock and Springfield Armory pistols... G36, G32, G19, G40, XD 45 full size, XD 45 compact, XDS 45 are the ones I've owned and/or carried.... There are a few others I've rented.

It all comes down to the trigger... I just can't master the mushy striker fired trigger to the degree that I can others.

I could shoot a pretty mean bullseye match with 1911, or a revolver (even double action)... But not a striker fired pistol.

I honestly just picked up a revolver and "took to it like a fish to water" as the saying goes... It just works, for me at least.


OP, thanks for opening the discussion about your journey to revolvers. Your initial posting didn't mention what your purpose was in choosing a revolver (altough you did mention Bullseye shooting), but you later clarified:

It's a 3 inch SP101, carries nicely in a simple leather appendix holster.

Unfortunately, the thread went only a page and a half before the newest iteration of the revolver versus autoloader argument broke out. So many assumptions, leading to so many "I feel that it's good enough for me and the scenarios I expect to face" conclusions.


In your OP, you used the word I a lot. As gun hobbyists, we often do this...we focus on what we can do with a gun, on the best groups we can shoot at a particular distance, on the trigger, grip, frame size, caliber, bullet weight, action, power factor, etc. that we like the best. Most of the posts in this thread so far have been in this vein...focused inward if you will.

If you're carrying a gun for self-defense, could I suggest that you think outside of the hobbyist mindset? Hobbyists often focus on GUNfight. I'm suggesting that you spend some time thinking about gunFIGHT. If you look outward, considering the attributes, tools, motives, and habits of your potential opponents in, and the settings and circumstances of, real gunFIGHTs, then I think that your journey might be a little more interesting. And well-rounded.


Some food for thought:

1) Criminals who carry guns can be pretty well-armed. (A place to start thinking about this might be GunnyUSMC's excellent thread here on THR about the guns that criminals in his area carry: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/what-kind-of-guns-do-the-bad-guys-carry.847899/).

2) Crime can be a team sport. As hobbyists we sometimes think about facing single targets. But bad actors often travel in packs. (A place to start might be this paper: https://www.academia.edu/9410931/Pa...of_Individual_and_Multi-perpetrator_Homicides. There are lots of long paragraphs in this paper, and it examines convicted murderers in Canada, but I think that if you only have time to read the abstract it might be worthwhile. The references quoted here are good to look up, too.).

3) Your GUNFIGHT might end very quickly or it might last a while, and even if you are armed it might involve close quarters/hand-to-hand fighting. (A place to see lots of real-life events that might help you start thinking about the range of fights that you might be in could be the Active Self Protection channel on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsE_m2z1NrvF2ImeNWh84mw).


I'm not trying to be definitive, nor am I trying to tell you what conclusions you should come to, but I do think that you may have undertaken your journey so far with hobbyist blinders on.
 
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Uplula for mag reloads, if someone has weak hands racking the slide would be the bigger issue.

S&W makes a .380 that addresses those issues but I don’t own one so I can’t speak to it’s quality.
 
I will throw a bone to the revolver folks...

The chances of 1) Being involved in a self-defense situation, 2) having to actually fire your weapon in a self-defensive situation, and 3) Having to engage multiple attackers or use all 5 or 6 rounds, is so mathematically minuscule for the vast majority of CCW holders that I can't fault anyone for thinking that merely having any firearm handy is good enough.
It is important to realize that, while the likelihood of occurrence will properly enter into the decision of whether to mitigate a risk or to accept it unmitigated, it is completely irrelevant to the subject of what it would take to mitigate the risk should it occur.

That's a fundamental tenet of risk management.
 
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Kleanbore, all your post have convinced me. Convinced me that I want another Revolver.
Good idea. If one chooses to carry a revolver, one would be better off writ two of them.

Personally, I yhink yea two six shot revolvers would be more effective than one twelve shot pistol.

I keep getting that urge to get that Kimber, or the New Colt King Cobra
I have a Kimber, and I like it.

I doubt that many people here today remember the Colt ads extolling the benefits of "that all important withe shot". They spoke of a 20% increase in capacity. It did not occur to me until I read JohnKSa's analysis that the increase in effectiveness could be a lot more than 20%.

Also liking the SP101 in 9mm.
I have one laded with .38 special. Three inch barrel, bobbed hammer, smithed action. Good gun, but I do not use it for primary carry.
 
I carry a Rossi 720 in 44 special, rotate in my Ruger Speed Six in 357 and work in my 3in Taurus 85 throughout the week for ccw.
The revolver is alive and well in my home!!!!
 

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I will throw a bone to the revolver folks...

The chances of 1) Being involved in a self-defense situation, 2) having to actually fire your weapon in a self-defensive situation, and 3) Having to engage multiple attackers or use all 5 or 6 rounds, is so mathematically minuscule for the vast majority of CCW holders that I can't fault anyone for thinking that merely having any firearm handy is good enough.

Okay, I'm one of those old guys mentioned that started with revolvers, switched to autos and then back to revolvers, SORT OF. In my 28 years as a LEO I carried a revolver, as my duty weapon for 15 years before I was forced to convert. I did however carry a J frame as a backup and off-duty weapon for the entire 28 years and now daily for 12 years, so far, of retirement. I carry a 5 shot J frame with 2 reloads because I am comfortable and confident in my ability to defend myself. I live in southern Arizona and it's shorts and T shirts about 9 months of the year and I pocket carry. I have tried to carry a Glock 26 and a Smith Shield but they are just too bulky and did me no good when left behind. I will not even consider a .380. A 5 shot 642 is just fine.

Professional instructors are just that instructors,trying to push their product and convince you of the need to carry a Glock 19 ( or whatever) everywhere you go. Pincus and Ayoob are just a couple who do this. In fact, probably 15-20 years ago Ayoob wrote an article stating that while at a Training conference he polled other instructors (who all pushed some sort of auto for CCW) to see what they actually carried and moist of them carried 5 shot J frames because in truth autos were just too inconvenient to carry.
 
I cut my teeth on the steel of a single action. Bought a SS Super Blackhawk in 1984. 34 year fast forward. I am still a wheelie guy. I have a few semi autos, and I like them very much. But the 6 shooter is my go too. I carry a Rossi 720 in 44 Special and rotate my Ruger Speed Six in 357 as my main ccw battery.
 
I carry a 5 shot J frame with 2 reloads because I am comfortable and confident in my ability to defend myself.
Do you really expect to be able to reload during a violent defensive encounter?

Professional instructors are just that instructors,trying to push their product and convince you of the need to carry a Glock 19 ( or whatever) everywhere you go. Pincus and Ayoob are just a couple who do this
Pincus and Ayoob both carry smiles-autos. Pincus recommends the 9mm.

In neither case is it "their product".

Mike Seeklander and Michael Bane carry semi-autos.

Train under Tom Givens and see what he says.

Ed Lovette wrote a good book about the snub-barrel revolver. He comes down strongly on the side of old six shot models.

It has become difficult to find good defensive training courses for snub revolvers.
 
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The only gun I own small enough for CC is a short barreled 5-shot 357 revolver. I don't CC often but when I do I feel fine with this revolver. The scenario I envision for self defense with a firearm is quick & short where awareness & the first couple of shots decide the outcome & not an extended firefight requiring reloading. That being said it doesn't hurt at all to have more rounds in the gun so I recognize the advantage of having a high cap semi auto over a 5-shot revolver.
 
Kleanbore said:
What is it that makes you think that it has not happened? Do you somehow believe that the particulars of every murder case are recorded by people who might understand and be interested in those kinds of details, and that they are compiled and made available for searches?

Well, they are not.

One would have to sit through trials in the courts of the thousands of US counties and listen carefully to days of testimony for any mention of whether and when anyone's firearm went dry and so on. the cases would not revolve around such trivia.

You're still at it I see. I never said anything either way. You 're the one who made claims, and I asked you to supply the data to back up your exertions. You're answer to me asking you to supply statistics and citations was to basically say non exist. Fair enough...

Do you really expect to be able to reload during a violent defensive encounter?

How would you know whether or not he'll be able to reload during a shooting? So you not only have an issue with revolvers with regards to capacity, now you have issues with carrying reloads too?

Pincus and Ayoob both carry smiles-autos. Pincus recommends the 9mm.

In neither case is it "their product".

Mike Seeklander and Michael Bane carry semi-autos.

Train under Tom Givens and see what he says.

That's great for them. Plenty of people, many retired police officers, carry revolvers. To each their own.
 
[In response to "Do you really expect to be able to reload during a violent defensive encounter?]How would you know whether or not he'll be able to reload during a shooting? ....
I don't.

I suggest engaging in some realistic FoF training. Try drawing, emptying one's firearm, and reloading while an assailant is charging at five meters per second from Tueller distance.

Tell us how you do.

So you not only have an issue with revolvers with regards to capacity, now you have issues with carrying reloads too?
No.

It's a good idea to train to reload a revolver, or to clear a malfunction by changing magazines, in a split second while moving, without glancing at the firearm.

Most people will conclude that it would not be realistic to expect to succeed very often.
 
I have a Ruger LCR .357, good quality and light. It is not my primary CCW, but I wear it when my larger sidearms are not appropriate.

I will state the .357 in such a small revolver had a significant kick (bruised my palm) versus the .38 spec in the same revolver. I do like it though, but typically carry .38 spec rounds.
Here in Florida its hot year round & for CC many carry those little 357 Ruger snubbies in their pocket. I agree with you on the choice of 38 Special over 357 Magnum. When loaded w/357 the little guns kick like heck but my problem is the fearsome muzzle blast. Never have figured out how some folks can fire those things w/o ear protection.
 
Here in Florida its hot year round & for CC many carry those little 357 Ruger snubbies in their pocket. I agree with you on the choice of 38 Special over 357 Magnum. When loaded w/357 the little guns kick like heck but my problem is the fearsome muzzle blast. Never have figured out how some folks can fire those things w/o ear protection.
If you're talking about firing your defensive weapon during a stessful encounter...I believe the term is called "auditory exclusion". That's where the stress of the moment causes the acute hearing function to somehow become minimal and only pick up certain sounds.
 
There are dozens and dozens of examples of shootings that required more than five or six shots to end a threat. Here are a couple of articles by actual self-defense experts in which they discuss the number of rounds required to end a threat.

I'm not trying to tell you that you you are wrong to carry a low-capacity firearm, but the decision to carry a firearm with increased capacity is based on more than feelings; it is based on real world encounters and the opinions of experts...

https://www.shootingillustrated.com...-self-defense-dont-bet-your-life-on-averages/

And, while we are talking about averages, let’s look at the average number of rounds fired in a deadly encounter. Depending upon which source one chooses to study, the average number of rounds fired in a deadly encounter is between two and four. So the guy who likes to bet his life on averages would say that he is good to go with a five-shot, snub-nose revolver with no extra reload.

But, what about the police officer who had to shoot the knife-wielding crook eight times with his .45 ACP before he stopped? Or, we could just examine some of the police shootings that involve 20 (or more) rounds being fired. Misses don’t mean much in a gunfight, no matter how close they are. And, we can’t be assured that the crook, high on dope or wearing body armor, will be impressed when we center punch him two to four times.

We carry extra ammunition to deal with all of those things that can go wrong when the shooting starts. A person’s pistol magazine may decide to give up the ghost right in the middle of a fight and, when it does, it sure would be nice to reach for that extra mag in order to stay in the fight. A defensive shooter may also have to dump his magazine in order to clear a double feed, in which case it is comforting to be able to pull an additional magazine and recharge.

Now, I am not a fan of carrying 20 or 30 rounds of extra ammunition around all day. Besides making concealment more difficult, the stuff just adds a lot of weight to my belt. However—average rounds fired be damned—an extra reload is a really good idea.

The optimist may plan and equip himself with the average gunfight in mind. I have always thought it was a far better idea to plan and equip (within reason) for the worst-case scenario. Knowing how my gun shoots at extended distances and having some extra ammunition is just a guard against an attack from Murphy and his silly law. As the old expression goes, no one involved in a gunfight ever wished they had less ammunition on hand.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2016/11/revolvers-semi-autos-comparison/

Semi-autos win this category. There’s no question about it. They hold more rounds and can be reloaded faster. Duty pistols like the Glock 17 and S&W M&P9 will give you 18 rounds of 9mm ammo at the tip of your trigger finger, literally three times the capacity of the sixgun of yesteryear. The little 9mm Glock 26 auto holds 11 rounds. You’d have to combine a five-shot S&W and a six-shot Colt to equal that in compact revolver technology.

With bad guys jacked up on drugs, wearing body armor, traveling in packs and knowing how to take cover—any of which can quickly drain the good guy’s ammo reservoir—this is a factor to consider. It’s probably the key reason for the autoloader’s ascendancy in both the police and the civilian markets.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/10/5-gunfighting-myths-debunked-massad-ayoob/

But four of those saves were absolutely firepower based. Two were Kaas and Davis, cited above. The other two were Bob Kolowski and Lloyd Burchette. Ambushed by a two-gun outlaw biker, they fired more than 20 shots and achieved 13 or 14 hits before attempted murderer Wayne O’Brien slumped and died. Kolowski had reloaded during the blazing gun battle.

And what about armed citizens? Famed Los Angeles watch shop owner Lance Thomas was involved in multiple gun battles with armed robbers, winning every one. In one of those incidents, he had to fire 19 rounds before the last of his multiple opponents was out of the fight. Some bad guys can soak up an unbelievable amount of lead, and the cunning ones run and use cover, making them harder to hit and requiring more shots to stop them.
Please provide statistics of gun owners who are killed in gun fights because they did not carry enough rounds with them.
 
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Please provide statistics of gun owners who are killed in gun fights because they did not carry enough rounds with them.
Such statistics are not made public, they are not compiled, and they would not be probative.
 
Such statistics are not made public, they are not compiled, and they would not be probative.
But surely there are anecdotal evidence such as news articles on gun owners killed in a self defense situation because he only carries a 5 round revolver.

After all, “there are dozens & dozens of examples....” available
 
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