Tac light--to laser or not to laser?

[snovvman]

Hello,

I am considering whether to include a laser on my tactical light, or not (TLR1s or TLR2s).

For me, the pros are:
1) Deterrence factor under certain situations
2) Potentially marksmanship improvement - help to see POA and movement of pistol in hand
3) Immediately pickup the POA under stress/combat situations

cons:
1) If I train to depend on the laser (use it as the primary sight), I may have trouble with backup/other weapons that do not have a laser and not pick up the sights properly
2) I cannot use the Safariland 6360 ALS holster (only the 6280 SLS supports the TLR2/s, and the tac light must be mounted in order for the 6280 to properly retain the pistol)

Neutral: No different than the light in giving away position

Please provide input and guidance.

Thank you.

 

[labhound]

I have a Stoeger Cougar 8045 with a Viridian C5L light/laser combo mounted on it. I don't carry it but use it for home defense only so no need for a holster. I practice with it both using the laser and the fixed sights. I haven't noticed that learning to shoot with the laser has affected my ability to pick up the fixed sights on the Cougar or any other handgun I own. My personal opinion, go for the light laser combo in whatever brand you choose.

 

[rhodco]

I have the Crimson Trace laser on a few of my guns. But, I take them off (or turn them off) when competing in IDPA because the rules don't allow them. I've had plenty of practice both ways. There are lots of advantages to a laser, but there are also some big disadvantages I have discovered.

With glasses I see far objects fine, but the iron sights are blurry. Looking over the glasses I see the sights fine but the target is blurry. Without a laser, I have to live with this compromise and adjust to it. The laser helps eyes to focus both on the threat and on the dot at the same time. This can be a big help for some like me.

Unfortunately, in the speed with which things happen in real life, the red dot may only give you a glimpse of how far off your shot is going to hit so you can compensate with the next. By that I mean, the time delay between seeing the dot the instant you squeeze the switch, realizing it is not exactly where you want it, adjusting it to center of target, and squeezing the trigger, can easily take too long to save your life.

If you have the element of surprise on your side, it can be a useful tool. If you have to draw and fire quickly in response to a threat, trust me, you will not have time to look for that little red dot.

I have trained both with the laser, and without it. The decision I ultimately arrived at was to leave it on the bedside table weapon, and remove it from the primary carry weapon.

 

[Mike1234567]

I mounted a TLR-2 on my HD pistol just a few days ago. I did without one for years but now I wouldn't be without it on my night stand gun.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I have about 6 Streamlight TLR-2 laser/lights on pistols, rifles and shotguns.
I have about another 8 (good) lasers on defense handguns.
After some years of shooting and experimenting with lasers and laser/lights (home range) I have found that nothing beats the laser or laser/light in it's element, low light or darkness, for speed and accuracy.

1) If I train to depend on the laser (use it as the primary sight), I may have trouble with backup/other weapons that do not have a laser and not pick up the sights properly

That's not the proper use of the laser. The laser is a low light sighting system, not a replacement for iron sights. Mostly you use the laser when you can not see the iron sights but sometimes the laser is useful when you can still see the iron sights, like indoors.

For instance,
this is when the laser/light is King. (my backyard range)


25 yards, from the hip.



Low light point shooting, from the hip, weak hand. Crimson Trace laser grips.



In the dark practice using the light and iron sights or the light and laser.



Near dark point shooting using the Crimson Trace laser. By the time I shot the 40 yard target it was so dark the target was just a Gray blur. Still the laser made COM hits fairly easy.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Lasers have their place but remember they work both ways.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Lasers have their place but remember they work both ways.

The bright Green ones might, because the beam can be seen.
Normally you can not see the Red beam unless the air is filled with moisture, smoke, etc.

In any case, if the BG can see your laser and has time to aim in on it, you are using the laser improperly, like in the movies.
The laser is not a flashlight where the beam may be turned on for a period of time, which is also improper use of a gun mounted flashlight.

When the laser is used properly the only thing the BG should see, if he sees anything at all, is a Red flash as he is hit by bullets.

In a rare case when the laser could be used for intimidation, you want the BG to see the laser, so you light it early. Even the dumbest criminal knows, from the movies, that if a laser dot is on his body a bullet can replace that dot in a split second.


I bought a bright green (expensive) laser to try it out. After a little while I saw it was pretty much usless and it's in the junk box. I use it once in a while to play with it in the rain, fog and low clouds.




.

 

[snovvman]

M2, thanks for taking the time to post the pictures, and others for replying.

I went to a store and tried on the laser--specifically, the Streamlight TLR-2s.

General laser observation:
1) I can fire where the dot is, I don't have to pick up the sights. This can be potentially faster, but...
1a) I would need to train both way, with and without laser, for situations where I cannot use or do not have the laser
1b) Streamlight specific - the laser would have to be on, for a fast draw situation where I need to fire fire immediately, I may not even have time to turn on the light. If I am expecting the dot would be there, it may turn out badly. In this case, Crimson Trace may be better, assuming it will fit in the holster.

2) Laser is also useful for high-risk stops, where a person can clearly see the dot, and as mentioned above, the deterrent factor.

3) I can see how the laser can help track moving targets.

4) For 20-25 yards and farther, the training is to have the front sight in perfect focus and the target blurry. Having a laser allows me to focus on the target and actually see the target and where I would hit. I can also focus on the target (where the dot is). If the target changes position, it is easier to track. At the same time, as mentioned above, time of day, sunlight, and other factors may keep me from seeing the dot.

In the end, there may be infinite situations where laser is good, and just as many where laser is not.

One thing is sure--I must always train to use the fixed sights in any case.

 

[M2 Carbine]

1a) I would need to train both way, with and without laser, for situations where I cannot use or do not have the laser

That's the answer.
In it's element the laser is outstanding but it isn't a replacement for being proficient with iron sights and point shooting.


With a new shooter I usually introduce them to the laser after a few days of shooting with the gun sights and even then they don't shoot with the laser a lot for a while.

An interesting thing is, many times experienced shooters have trouble adapting to the laser, where as a fairly new shooter picks it up pretty quick.

A couple examples are, my couple experienced shooting friends had trouble not only with speed but accuracy when first trying the laser.

But these two female new shooters picked it up right away.

Late on the third day of shooting I handed a (senior) lady my Ruger and, after a little instruction, I told her to put the 10 shots in the BG silhouette's head, using the laser. (about 8 yards) She put the 10 bullets in his head.
Then I told her, Now, at 10 yards, shoot the gun out of his hand.
And she did.
I told her that was not good enough, misses are not acceptable.



As it was getting dark and we were packing up, after this girls first time ever shooting a gun, I handed her my Crimson Trace laser equipped S&W J Frame and a pocket full of 38 Special.
After a quick laser lesson I told her to go try out the laser.
Since she had been shooting the J Frame iron sights and doing very well I expected she would do well with the laser, and she did exceptionally well.



My friend is doing better with the laser but his young daughter still beats him.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

How many different mechanical controls do you want to add to your decision-making and motor routines (manipulations) under stress? Will you be able to operate everything correctly and quickly during a rapidly unfolding situation, and in the sequence you want on demand?

The more gizmos you add the more training you'll need to ingrain your decision-making and manipulation skills so they can be performed without conscious thought.

I wouldn't recommend another gadget if you cannot already manipulate your pistol without having to think about the process of what you're doing. If you hesitate to think about your manipulations then you haven't trained enough to operate your pistol intuitively.

 

[snovvman]

The more gizmos you add the more training you'll need to ingrain your decision-making and manipulation skills so they can be performed without conscious thought.

Thanks for your input. I agree. I would think that a light-mounted laser, even only a tac light, are useful for situations where you have some time. Unless the laser is activated by grip pressure and one trains to look for the dot, there is simply not enough time under some circumstances. Again, what happens when it's a bright day and you cannot find the dot?

Nice website by the way, a lot of good information.

 

[Flopsweat]

Lasers are great for training. Watching the beam after the shot is fired will make it very obvious if and where you are pulling your shots. On guns with tiny or difficult sights you can use a laser to very quickly learn/teach how to line up the sights. They're also very helpful in learning point shooting. The key is to practice more without the laser than with it. As has been mentioned earlier, used properly they can offer a big advantage in many situations. And while there is merit to keeping things simple, one extra button is not going to turn me into a spaz. Do I want to become dependant on any electronic device on my gun? Never - I deliberately train not to. But that does not mean that I'll dismiss the advantages that they offer.

 

[basicblur]

Again, what happens when it's a bright day and you cannot find the dot?

With light, I resort to my primary (iron) sights.
The laser is just another tool in the toolbox, but it is not my primary sight.

I'm probably going:
1. Iron sights
2. Night sights (still iron, but Trijicons)
Options 3 and 4 will probably depend on the situation to determine the order, but they are:
Point shooting
Laser sight

 

[Mike1234567]

I can't see how anything could be better than a reliable high quality laser on a SD/HD gun. Complicated? Just flip the switch.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Unless the laser is activated by grip pressure and one trains to look for the dot, there is simply not enough time under some circumstances. Again, what happens when it's a bright day and you cannot find the dot?

Again, no offense, you are making wrong assumptions.

The grip laser activation is the best but you only have the laser. If it's dark enough that you can't identify the target, you can still quickly put the laser on target but you can not shoot without being able to identify the target as a threat.
That's where the light comes in. Now the decision is, a gun mounted light, or a hand held light? Personally I am poor with a hand held light but I'm as fast or faster with a laser/light in low light as I am with iron sights in daylight.
That Streamlight switch is just in front of the trigger guard, just where your trigger fingertip is. Easy to turn On and Off with practice.

Forget the laser in daylight. It's about as good in daylight as your iron sights are in the dark. Use the iron sights in daylight and the laser in low light.


"and you cannot find the dot?"
You do not "find" the dot. You do not look for the dot.
You look at the target, where you want to hit the target.
You point the gun at the target. With a little practice you will be pointing the gun close to where you want to hit, say as much as a foot off center at first.
As the gun comes on target you light the laser.
You will see the laser dot but you don't look at it.
You continue looking at where you want to hit, and depending on the situation, you start back on the trigger as you will automatically be moving the laser dot on center as the gun fires.
With practice the whole thing will take less than a second for a young decent shooter.

I'm 73 and it seems I'm getting slower every day, and I put a premium on accuracy, so this is about as good as I do now days. A younger good shooter should cut that time way down. So practice.
Note the laser and iron sight targets are about the same, with the time edge going to the laser.

 

[snovvman]

Again, no offense, you are making wrong assumptions.

Not at all Sir. I appreciate the time you spend on this and willingness to provide input.

I am trained in combat shooting - fast draw and shoot, point shooting, strong hand, weak hand, transitions, shotgun transition to pistol, behind cover, kneeling, night, etc. I see what you mean about not looking for the dot. We practice to point and shoot at close quarters, and at farther distances, to focus on the front sight.

For me, I noticed that the laser would allow me to focus on the target and "look" at the target rather than the front sight. This can be tactically advantageous. Since you mentioned it, I did notice that I was "seeing" the laser with my peripheral vision on the target.

My only concern is under fast draw, fast/point shooting situations, if it would actually make sense to activate the laser if it is on the light.

 

[M2 Carbine]

From your experience I believe you will quickly get very good with the laser, laser/light and see it's advantages.

My only concern is under fast draw, fast/point shooting situations, if it would actually make sense to activate the laser if it is on the light.

The Streamlight has a switch allowing you to have the light, laser or both turn ON. The activation (ON, OFF) switch has two positions, steady ON or ON only as long as your finger holds the switch down.

Personally, I have the Streamlights that are on my HD guns set for the laser and light both to come on when I hit the ON switch. If I need the laser, chances are I will need white light to.

When I first heard of a laser in a white light I thought that sounded strange but the first time you turn on the light and see that Red dot in the center it makes a believer of you.

This is not a real good example. The room is totally dark. This is what you get with the laser and light both on (21 feet) (for some reason instead of a little bright Red dot the camera sees a big Red dot with a white center)
You can't tell from the picture but that light is actually so bright that you can see everything in the room by just shining the light anywhere, even at the ceiling. Meaning that you do not have to point the laser/light/gun at possibly a family member to identify them.



Later I moved outside where I attempted to hit the BG, using the laser/light, with a load of #4 Buckshot and a slug, without hitting the girl.

 

[daorhgih]

Two-man team and laser applications.

For aimed-fire from concealment, or otherwise, one member with a laser-equipped weapon, and the other member using a spotting scope can have very beneficial results. Certainly, yes, the weapon-mounted laser adds even more depth to the scenario, all in the shooter's plus-side. DAO

 

[Strykervet]

I've got a fair amount of experience with lasers. I've heard a lot of folks knock them, but I'm willing to bet they have little experience with them, other than they've seen them and don't like them. I think the Crimson Trace lasers on snub revolvers are the best thing since sliced bread.

The biggest drawbacks are 1. Relying on it completely 2. it uses batteries 3. no training and a tendency to use the laser/light as a flashlight and 4. they are generally bulky and prohibit holsters or concealed carry.

I tend to use the laser/light as a light that just happens to have a laser. I don't depend on it, I can shoot fine without it. I keep good batteries in it. I only use it for HD. I train with a pistol point shooting for defense, so I'm already looking at the target. No change there. I do something unorthodox when sighting it in though --I don't zero it like you would sights. Instead, I lock it down and put the laser dot where it is almost eclipsed by a good sight picture at 20-30ft. (whatever the distance is accross the bedroom). Like I said, I don't depend on it.

But I have shot targets at 300m with a laser. I used my PEQ2A in the army, my IR laser, to shoot chem lights at night at 300m. Most soldiers think they are junk because they aren't taught to use them properly; they change their mind when they see those chem lights splash though! Also good for pointing out targets to your buddies --we'd pick our targets so when we fired, say for an ambush, such that each person had their own targets. Otherwise everyone may shoot at the same target. Good military applications for sure. They don't use visible lasers though, lasers are for use at night and at night soldiers wear NODs.

The whole giving away your position... In the army, discharging the laser was the same as an AD. So I fire the laser when I'm ready to shoot. If that laser is on you and I'm on the other end, it isn't a deterrent, the deterrent was the "no trespassing" sign, the alarm sign, the door locks, the dog, and the actual alarm itself you ignored. The laser is an aiming device, and one of the basic rules of firearms handling is that you don't point (or aim) a weapon at anything you don't intend on shooting.

Finally, don't ever use the laser/light or tac light as a flashlight. Like the power went out and I need a flashlight flashlight. That is plain stupid, and I'm willing to bet there have been accidents due to this. That light is only for when you have a weapon in your hands and you would otherwise need your mouth to hold it. I keep a little one battery surefire light for a flashlight, I always have it in my pocket.

The alternative is to hold the flashlight in the off hand and use that wrist as a rest for the firing hand. Obviously having your normal two handed firing grip is better, so this is the only time the weapon light should be used. The laser should be regarded in the same fashion.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I think the Crimson Trace lasers on snub revolvers are the best thing since sliced bread.

Laser story.
I taught my friend's daughter to shoot when she was 16. She is very good with the Smith J Frames and has used the Crimson Trace laser on my 2 inch J Frame Model 60 a few times. She hasn't shot it much because we usually shoot during the day.

One day the girl was shooting pretty well (iron sights) but she could not run the five, 3 inch steel targets. She would leave one standing.

It was getting late and we were packing up. I told the girl we aren't quitting until you run those five targets.
I handed her my 2 inch Model 60 and said use the laser. Faster than I can tell it she dropped those five targets.
Her father said, Now that shows why you need a laser.