Teaching two women to shoot: A moral and a question

[Quoheleth]

I had the privilege of teaching two ladies - a mother & daughter - some basics of handgun shooting this morning. They are scheduled to take the Texas CHL class this weekend and both were leery of the shooting portion.

I set them up at 5 yards - I figured that to be a nice compromise of distances - with targets approximating the size of the targets for the class. After some basic gun safety rules and range rules, I showed them the Weaver and isocoeles (sic) stances. Both had been taught the teacup and "wrist brace" stances by family members; both ladies agreed what I showed them gave them better control -- and, with just that one thing, boosted their confidence 100%.

I started with my Buckmark, letting them get used to the stance, properly gripping the gun, sight picture (front sight, front sight, front sight...), leaning into the gun, and trigger squeeze (mom had a wicked trigger slap), they were both shooting playing-card groups in a few minutes.

We moved up to their 9mms. Mom had a Jiminez JA9 that her hubby bought her. Having heard the horror stories, I tried to reserve judgement. The slide release doubles as the safety and is almost as stiff as a crowbar. It took two fingers to disengage the slide using the slide stop and a very hard push with the trigger finger to further disengage the safety. The trigger has to be 20 pounds - I jerk you not. She was shaking, she was trying so hard to press the trigger (now, I understood the trigger slap before). After a couple rounds, she gave up and asked me to try it.

Trigger pull is probably 20 pounds. The grip feels blockier than a Glock and the slide sits so low on the "beavertail" that I have race-tracks in the web of my hand from it. The sights were OK, but the rest of the gun was so lousy that there were no redeeming features of the $199 weapon.

Daughter had a Taurus PT111 that her hubby bought her. Controls "snicked" nicely and the trigger was typical DA/SA Taurus - looooooooong take-up and a creepy final release. She tried to shoot it and kept shooting 12-15" low. I tried it; 8" low.

After a few more attempts at the Taurus, I pulled my Smith M&P9 out of the trunk. After familairizing them with the controls and adjusting the backstraps to fit their hands, the two ladies took turns shooting it. Both were hitting my 3" day-glo stickerswith 75% of their shots; all were kept in the center-mass area.

I let them also try my 1911s, loaded light with 185 LWCs, just as a comparison. Daughter didn't care for the .45 much, but Mom was grooving it pretty good. For shiggles, I let Mom shoot some home-rolled .357 Mag 158 SWCs out of my 6" GP100. After the first shot and getting rid of the intimidation factor, she aced the next 5 into the 3" bull. She had a grin on her face that would have split a jack-o-lantern open wide. She really liked that Magnum.

MORAL: Don't assime that because the gun is for a woman, they want/need small guns. They both really liked the full-size Smith and were making plans to try to sell their other two guns to finance a pair of M&Ps. Daughter is looking for an M&P9 (I might offer her mine at a fair price, as I really want a CZ after shooting one this morning). I suggested they get one to share, for now, knowing it will be probably 3 months until the CHL comes in the mail. That gives them time to save for the 2nd one. Too, Mom is thinking she wants the .45 version. We shall see what happens...

QUESTION: What are fair prices on the Jiminez and Taurus? Both are LNIB - fewer than 10 rounds in the Jiminez; about 75 rounds through the Taurus. Wife's hubby gave $199 for the Jiminez; daughter's hubby gave $375 for the PT111. I'm thinking the Taurus should go for $350, OBO. The Jiminez needs a sucker...but, realistically, what do you think - can she expect $100 for it? I know she's gonna take a beating on it...

Anyhow...there's my "What I did today to support the 2nd Ammendment" story. If you have any thoughts on prices and how to unload a Jiminez, please let me know~!

Q

 

[jad0110]

Excellent story, thank you for sharing it!

Yup, I've never understood the whole, mindless "best gun for a woman is always a 'lil 15 oz 38 snubbie" (though granted, that wasn't one of the guns in your experience). Sometimes that may be true, but many times not. I'm surprised at how many guys and so called "gunnies" out there automatically, always think that a S&W 642 snub 38 or Kel-Tec P3AT is better for a woman for home protection than say, an all-steel 4" S&W Model 15 or 5" M1911. Now of course, for concealed carry, things do become more complex as weight does carry more consideration (less of it driving up felt recoil, all else equal).

My wife prefers shooting my 5" 45 ACP 1911 and my sister her 4" S&W 681 357 Magnum to my 38 S&W 642. Go figure. They both learned real quick that weight is your friend when it comes to felt recoil.

Guys, let the ladies in your life pick their guns. Do you like it when they tell you what you should wear? Offer information and answer their questions, of course, and if you don't know the answer don't be afraid to say "I dunno, lets ask some who does". And a revolver is not always automatically the answer either, and I say that as a revolver nut. My sister prefers revolvers, while my wife prefers semis (relatively speaking, my wife still hates guns in general :banghead.

And if they aren't interested enough to pick, that's probably a good hint that they aren't interested, and that they are probably not well served with a gun.

As for the JA9, I typically see them at gun shows selling for around $125 used, tops. And that is pushing it. On a trade, she may not even get $100. The PT series seems to go for $325 +/1 $25 locally, used. She might get $350 if she sells it herself, or on consignment.

 

[David E]

If she gets $50 for the JA9, call it a good deal and buy a better gun.

 

[Rockwell1]

I'd say take the Jimenez to the next buy back in your area

 

[sniper5]

First things I told my wife after the 4 rules of safety:

1. Forget EVERYTHING you ever saw on TV about guns.

2. Weight is your friend.

3. It's GOT to fit.


End result? After 6 months of weekly practice, ragged one holers with .38 +P at 7 yards out of her 6" GP100 and can put a string of full house magnums in a not much larger group in the kill zone at about double the distance. Looks at some of the women getting talked into little snubbies for a first gun and whispers to me "That's going to knock the crap out of her!". And we just smile at each other and go about our business.

 

[MacTech]

I've had similar situations at the range, man and woman set up next to me, I'm shooting either my Kimber Custom II .45 or my CZ-75B 9mm (I bring both), man hands woman;
1; A tiny .357 Snubbie lightweight or other small, or "cute" gun in a reasonable caliber
2; Some form of massive hand-cannon, either semi or revolver
(it's usually 1)

Either way, the results are similar, heavy recoil, and lots of noise and fury from the gun, and a startled and intimidated shooter who might not enjoy the sport....

at some point, the woman asks me what I'm shooting, I tell her what it is, and ask if she wants to try it, usually she says yes, a bit hesitant due to being intimidated by the previous gun her freind let her shoot....

after the first couple rounds, and the massive grin, as she finds the gun controllable and comfortable, the questions start, what is it, what caliber, how much was it......why can i shoot this better than that other gun (pointing to her freind's gun), I quickly explain that heavy is good in handguns, it absorbs and manages recoil, if she's shooting my .45, I have her try a mag of factory loads, and then my light target shooting loads (4.5 grains of 231 under a 230LRN bullet), everyone who's tried the target loads loves 'em, they make my big .45 have less recoil and noise than even factory loaded 9mm

They invariably love that big .45 caliber pussycat of a gun

as they go back to their station, invariably I hear something like "I like *his* guns better, can we get one of those instead".....

Heavy is good in handguns, there *is* such a thing as too light

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Well, Light is relative.

My S&W M&P .45 ACP is like a pound and some ounces empty, but when loaded with 10 in a double stack mag, it's HEAVY. But not too heavy. 3 pounds maybe, if that.

There is much boom, fire and noise coming from the gun but hardly any work hanging onto such a dragon. The fun is over and it's empty and locked back and you are presented with a group around center mass.

The trigger pull takes a while though. I dont mind it much now but I can just see the spouse pulling all morning on it wondering when the boom is going to go.

I wonder what kind of flinch im going to see.

 

[altitude_19]

VERY good story

I was listening to the guntalk podcast the other day and heard a similar opinion. Hard to say why so many of us try to set ladies up with snubbies. They are notoriously difficult to shoot well due to small sight radius and HEAVY trigger pulls (M&P 340 anyone?). Maybe we're applying the same theories from blue jeans and t-shirts to our women's guns (smaller is better)? Maybe we're not comfortable with women packing the same firepower as we do (I drive the Silverado, you get the VW)? But yeah, I chalk it up bad influence on our part why so many women end up with guns that don't suit them. Again, well done.

 

[electric wombat]

It is odd how guys will automatically go straight to a little 38 snubbie for a woman. But I think that's somewhat of women's faults too. When a woman asks me what i'd recommend I usually say something in a .40S&W. Many of them cringe when i say 40 cal & most refuse to shoot anything more than say a 9mm. I've been tryng to get one of my female friends to shoot one of my 40's or 45's for the longest time (like over a year) and she won't do it. She has it in her head that it's too much for her & she's intimidated by it. I know she could handle a 44 mag easily but it's that intimidation factor. I guess it's women like this that make men go directly to a small low calibur pistol. But then on the flip side of that another female friend will shoot guns that would make most guy wet themselves. She's fairly new to shooting, the first time i took her out i had a good spread of calibers for her to try, from a 22LR to my S&W 460. First thing she went for was the 460 with 300grain full loads. She shot about a half dozen cylinders full without batting an eye. I offered several guys the chance to shoot the 460 & none wanted to. My friend made me proud that day.

 

[Quoheleth]

Yeah; both girls were so concerend about recoil - "kick." "Now, is this one gonna kick more than that one?"

We talked about physics - a heavier gun (i.e., 1911) will have less perceived recoil than a light one (polymer) because of mass, inertia, and Mr. Newton. Mom was terrified of the Magnum just because of the word. When I handed her the revolver at first, she thought it was pretty cool. When she asked what it was, I told her a .357. With a hint of terror, she asked "MAGNUM?????" Granted, I didn't load up the hot-rod ammo, just a nice mild flat-shooting load I've worked up for 50 yard clay pidgeon shooting. But after the first shot, she was quite pleased with it. The 1911 was the same thing - "the bullet is so big! It's gotta kick hard!" After I let her shoot it, she agreed with me - it's a different kind of recoil and not at all unpleasant.

Once they relaxed about "kick" and how the gun moved after it was fired, and concentrated on the front sight and on returning the gun to the same place after the shot, they did fine.

Oh...best part...they bought me lunch at a BBQ joint!

Q

 

[Ed Ames]

It is odd how guys will automatically go straight to a little 38 snubbie for a woman.

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion:

The other day I was in a gun shop while a college or just-out-of-college age woman was shopping for a handgun. She had an older woman (mother? Older coworker? No way to know) and one or two guys (one her age, maybe one much older unless he was just someone they started talking to in the store). The guys were standing well back letting the young woman interact with the sales person. The older woman was at the counter (the only "supporter" who was actually at the counter) but wasn't really pushing anything. They were encouraging her to try whatever she wanted out of a counter with a fairly broad selection.

In other words, they were doing exactly what everyone says they should do... support the person in picking the gun that feels best to the prospective owner.

She was a bit of a loud/enthusiastic talker so there was no part of the store where you couldn't hear what she was saying.

She picked up a few semi-autos but gravitated towards revolvers. I think because of the perceived simplicity.
She picked up a Ruger LCR... it was OK but "bulky in my hand".
She picked up a small S&W (one of the shrouded hammer/bodyguard style guns) and liked it. She was trying to puzzle out the reason for the hammer and there was a lot of talk about how "It's really hard to pull the trigger, but I can see how, if I was scared, the trigger wouldn't be hard to pull at all".
They showed her guns from taurus, rossi, and a few others including even a .45C derringer (her: "Two shots? What if I miss? That's a play gun, not a self defense gun.")

As far as I could tell her "support group" was doing things exactly right. They offered relevant facts ("all of them will go through walls and can kill on the other side", etc.) but didn't try to push any specific gun. No, "oh, you've got to try ____, it's the best!"

Then she latched on to a pink gripped ladysmith revolver. She said, "This just feels the best to me. And it's pink. If another felt better in my hands the color wouldn't matter but this is a bonus."

The salesperson said something along these lines, "If you like pink you can probably find pink grips for any gun in this counter." She replied, "but this feels the best in my hand." She asked the older woman if she wanted to "try it out" and the older woman said something like, "That's what I have."

So there you have guys actively trying to let a would-be gun buyer make their own informed choice with minimal bias or interference...and she latched on to the little .38 snubby all on her own.

As I left she was asking about shooting lessons and concealed carry courses.

 

[searcher451]

Great report, and thanks for providing the reminders. It's a great lesson that the last thing a man should do for his wife/girlfriend/significant other is to select a gun and buy it for her without having her try it on for size. Far too often, one bad decision leads to another, and then another, and pretty soon the range trips are over, often for good.

 

[Guy de Loimbard]

In my admittedly limited observating, I have found that women are best served with a gun they can control well, and that fits them well. Kind of like men, no? Odd how that works. They're tougher than a lot of men give them credit for. I've not yet met a woman who won't at least try my .45 Colt Blackhawk. Even if they are new to shooting, they at least want to see what it will feel like. (easy loads, for everyone's first go-round on that gun I make them use my target loads - 7.0gr. Universal with a 255gr. LSWC) Occasionally guys will refuse though. Too many of them have been led to believe that anything bigger than a 9mm "will tear your arm off!" unless you are a super manly man who eats nothing but 'roids for breakfast.

 

[jfrey]

If you really want to see them grin,they should have shot a Browning Hi-Power. My wife bought one years ago and still gravitates to it when she HAS to shoot. She bought herself a Taurus PT-111 and it does shoot low. You just aim a little higher with that one than you do others. It would probably bring between $300.00 and $325.00 used. The other one should be used for a trotline weight.

 

[kilo729]

You have to ask yourself :

When you were taught to shoot as a kid, did the teacher hand you the smallest weapon possible?

Mine sure as heck didn't, he handed me a brick - His 92fs, and I'm a fan of that monster.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

My Spouse showed me that she still retained her Marine training with handgun.

Her basics was enough to put one exactly into the bulls eye circle at 25 feet on three dot sights focusing on front sights. 9 of 10 rounds fired 230 grain. All of them grouped within 4 inches diameter around that bullseye shot based towards anticipating recoil. The one went wild, I'll write it off to first shot.

I called a cease fire only once when I noticed that her arms was tiring and her handgun was getting too close to her face prior to firing. She was moving from a weaver into a sort of praying mantis because of tired arms and I recognzied that danger of the recoil smacking her in the face if she fired.

I think Im going to say that she shoots my weapon very well, was not afraid of it and once she gets used to it, she will fire more rapidly at her own pace.

She shoots better than I do with my own hangun and it's all full bore .45 ACP with 230 grain loads.

Sheesh.

Next time we take her to doctor we ask about her arms. No one is supposed to get that tired easily, unless something medical is going on or perhaps she is taking WAY too much time holding gun between shots.

 

[Quoheleth]

Or she is exerting so much force/tension that it is burning up the muscle and causing acidocis.

Just a thought...hope its nothing serious.

Q

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Here is spouse's shoot results. Way better than mine at 7 yards.

http://media7.dropshots.com/photos/620679/20090604/123847.jpg


Here is mine.

http://media8.dropshots.com/photos/620679/20090604/123452.jpg


And also again rapid with hollow point carry ammuntion.

http://media6.dropshots.com/photos/620679/20090604/123642.jpg


All in all I think spouse had no issues with the weapon in general but will probably be taught to aim, fire and finish a clip in a shorter time. I will give her a few hundred rounds of my training fmj's before she gets to fire the carry ammunition.

We will get the doc to examine her muscles soon and see where we are. Maybe there is too much going on with the toxic waste or something inside them as referred to by Quohelteh.

The carry ammo is much snappier and leaves the gun in a hurry compared to the slower fmj's

I asked the spouse if the big handgun was too much gun, she said no. Gotta love a wife who can shoot your stuff better than YOU can I guess.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

I'm an NRA certified pistol instructor in Florida, so I commonly do the first steps pistol course. And people use that as the educational requirement to get their CWP/CWL. Only about 1/3 of my students are women. Commonly it's a father bringing his daughter, a husband bringing his wife, a boyfriend bringing his girlfriend. When the course can be done for $78 with the range fee(if we go to a gun range instead of going out to a buddy of mine's property, then it's $60) with use of .22lr SA revolver and ammunition to complete the course, people seem to like using me.

I start women out, common with most men, (mind you most of my students are total newbs)on hertiage rough rider .22lr with 6" barrel. I also offer at a premium for students a chance to shoot on:

Norinco 213 (Tokarev in 9mm)
Norinco Type 54 (Tokarev in 7.62x25)
Rossi 462 (Snub-nose in .357 Magnum, that the students shoot .38 special)
S&W Model 19-4 with 6" barrel in either .357 magnum or .38 special
Tarus Model 82 with 4" barrel (.38 special)
Kel-Tec PF9 9mm
Ruger P90 in .45 ACP

I stopped using Taurus PT 92, Taurs PT 99, Glock 22, Glock 19 because I started to feel uncomfortable about teaching students on firearms with capacities greater than 10 rounds. Just a personal reason is all. Plus I teach the course as a target shooting course, and if a student buys their own handgun I usually teach them for free later on, how to use the firearm.

What I've found women to like is, the Norinco 213, more so over the PF9 oddly enough. The consensus seems to be the feel, weight, and ease of grip, simple safety, make it for being a good choice. And eight rounds of 9mm with a good SD round isn't something to sneeze at. I have had my FFL guy (I do group buys with my students) get some female students 7.62x25 Romanian TTCs, becaue with a Wolf JHP you can see from brassfetcher.com that the round has great potential as a manstopper.

Women who seem to like the PF9 or Rossi seem to like it for its functionality as a small concealable fiream. Mind you the biggest seller to women out of the group of guns that I bring is the Romanian Model 7.62x25 Tokarev (I own five of them and would never sell one of them) which is essentially a duplicate of the Norinco 54. When women buy other models it's for the purpose of Concealed Carry and they move more towards the S&W J frames more so because of the male influence with them (who tend not own any of the J frames but just have this 'feeling' it's a better gun). I've seen 442s, 642s, and 637s bought in groups of six to eight. To be honest I've thought about getting myself a 637 or 442, but I already own five snub nose .357 magnums that are my go anywhere guns.

So when women make their own choices for their first guns it seems to be the Romanian TTC (granted my FFL guy get's them to the customer for under $260, even after my $30 fee, he won't do sales without me present for my students). So far eighteen have sold to women, and I get emails every week about students whanting to go with me to the range to shoot their guns. Unfortunately I feel like I've been driving up my own prices for getting surplus 7.62x25. But thankfully the FFL guy lets us bulk order (at a 10% markup) Wolf JHP reloadable 7.62x25, and I've split a couple 1k orders with students. I'd buy more commercial modern ammo if I didn't have over 12k of the surplus.

 

[novalty]

I had about the same experience as Kilo729. At the age of 8 or 9 my father let me shoot his S&W 686 with 6" barrel. I'm sure he got a laugh out of seeing me almost fall over backwards. Still love that gun, wish it had a shorter barrel. Shot it again recently and it still kicks like a mule. But then again having rhuematoid arthritis and weak wrists doesn't help things.