Terminal Performance of .45 ACP Aguila High Power Fragmenting

[up_onus]

So, I'm surfing around looking at ballistic information regarding calibre. Specifically http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
and I ran up on the CP Aguila ballistic geletin test here
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume3/number2/article2.htm

Two things I noticed. The bullet fragmented REALLY well. I think that this would be good for better opportunity for "stopping" power and/or at least "slowing" power as I know this debate continues.

The second thing I noticed was that the penetration wasnt at what is considered "optimum" by FBI standards. So....

The questions are these.
1) What do you all think about fragmenting rounds. Specifically regarding stopping power and safety (overpenetration).

2) If the bullet moved at a higher velocity than a .45 generally does, wouldnt that allow the fragments to move to a more "optimum" range for stopping power? (for example maybe using a 357 fragmenting bullet?)

Well, thats it...Just hoping for some opinion and HOPEFULLY some real "technical" advice.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Use Corbon DPX in 45 it will do a lot better than that other junk . You want the bullet to stay together and do damage. DPX does fine in barrier testing.

 

[cookekdjr]

I wouldn't used fragmenting ammo unless my only other choice was blanks.

 

[up_onus]

Micheal,
Where do you get your data? Check out www.theboxotruth.com
Didnt do very well on the "unofficial" barrier testing...

Cooked
Why???????? Is the question? hmmm.... your one of those "no shades of grey" kind of guy huh?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Use the SEARCH function and I believe you will find that the majority of folks here feel that Aguila is pretty pitiful for real life self defense purposes. Other threads have the links to where the stuff has been tested in ballistic gel and NOT penetrated well enough to be considered a good choice.

Currently, I don't know of any PDs or other such agencies that endorse or issue said ammo to their officers.

 

[mdao]

Penetration for that round sucks, mainly because sectional density sucks. 117 grains is really light for a .45, and gives it roughly the sectional density of a 35 grain .25 ACP. Unsurprisingly, this round penetrated about as well as a 35 grain .25 ACP. Without the light weight though, you wouldn't get any fragmentation.

If we moved up to a heavier bullet, say keeping the same bullet shape, but making it out of copper, sectional density would increase and you could get adequate penetration out of the design. Wouldn't work though, as .45 ACP power levels wouldn't be able to move such a heavy bullet at a reasonable speed, much less at a speed where it would fragment.

Still, the idea might be worth exploring. Load up the same style bullet in copper in .460 Magnum. 380 grains at 1,600 FPS should give adequate velocity for fragmentation, and a high enough sectional density for adequate penetration. Might even make Cousin Mike's idea of using big bore magnums for home defense somewhat feasible. It'd also cut down on overpenetration issues.

 

[RyanM]

Ammo which completely fragments = poop. In .45 caliber, your best bet is 230 gr Winchester Ranger Talon (the LE only stuff), hands down. 230 gr Federal Tactical, 230 gr Remington Golden Sabers, 230 gr Federal HST, and 230 gr Speer Gold Dot are also pretty good. Golden Sabers and Gold Dots are the only ones available on the civilian market, but the LE only junk is there if you look around.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Ryan,

Federal Tac. Bonded and HSTs are availible for the general public. In fact, I ordered 100 rounds of 9mm and 50 rounds of .45 ACP around a week ago.

 

[bitstreamer]

I can't comment on terminal performance, but be prepared for a very large muzzle blast. Aguila doesn't seem to put any flash retardant in these rounds.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I think you mean folks should be prepared for a large muzzle FLASH. There is a large muzzle blast whether there is retardant or not.

Is it that they don't put in flash retardant or the fact that the round has left the barrel long before the powder has burned?

 

[Brass Fetcher]

1) What do you all think about fragmenting rounds. Specifically regarding stopping power and safety (overpenetration).

Outstanding idea for reducing overpenetration. Look at the wound profiles of the M-16 bullets on www.firearmstactical.com - penetration is just >barely< to the 12" standard, IIRC. And that is from a rifle. Pistols are a lot less impressive than rifles - although I had an (enormously lucky) test with 165gr Cor-Bon JHP in .40S&W once. The fragments stayed with the bullet, creating something like 14" of penetration and a 0.75" effective diameter (my estimate). But that is the rare exception.

2) If the bullet moved at a higher velocity than a .45 generally does, wouldnt that allow the fragments to move to a more "optimum" range for stopping power? (for example maybe using a 357 fragmenting bullet?)

The most effecient projectile in terms of penetration, is the slow, sectionally dense bullet. Ballistic gelatin is a 'solid liquid', letting us model (in general) the effects of fluid drag on the bullet just as we would with a boat through the water or a hand reaching out of a car window - the faster you go, the drag will increase exponentially. So, like many things, slow and fat is the best way to go.

 

[S&Wfan]

Yes,

The Aguilla 117gn. load has a horrid muzzle flash . . . not exactly what one would want if the gun had to be fired at night. The flame is wicked.

Also, the muzzle blast and the recoil will surprise you. The kick profile is much more like a really strong .357 kick than any .45 I've ever fired. People would be amazed how hard this little round kicks!

I bought a couple of boxes for my shortened barrel 25-2 S&W revolver during a time when I was forced to put a sight that was too short on the gun temporarily while a new, taller front sight was ordered. Thus, the lighter weight ammo helped bring the point of impact down significantly by using the Aguila in the interim.

I can't imagine using this round though, for much of anything. My front sight is now replaced with the right height sight so I'm back to my 230 gn. loads.

T.

 

[Snowdog]

Personally, if I were hell-bent on fragmenting ammunition, I'd try to track down some Triton Quik-Shok on www.AuctionArms.com, GunsAmerica.com or GunBroker.com before using Aquila's light, exotic metal offering. At least with Quik-Shok, you'll get some acceptable penetration along with the nice radial expansion.

I believe the dreaded American Ammuniton loads Quik-Shoks now, but I must say the 100 rounds of 135gr .40S&W AA Quik-Shoks I recently fired from my Steyr M40 function perfectly, proved pleasantly accurate and didn't exhibit any of the poor quality aspects typical with American Ammunition. They were also a much agreeable $11/50.

However, if they were expected to fill a defensive role (what else?), I'd look for the earlier manufacter offering if possible.

IMO, I doubt I could do much better than 230gr Remington Golden Sabers, so that's all I'll use.

 

[bitstreamer]

Thanks for the correction Double Naught Spy. I'd say the muzzle blast and flash are quite large.

 

[clone]

i would say this would be a great round for varmints up to yote's, from a pistol or carbine. anyone know if there is much increase in velocity from a carbine?

 

[up_onus]

So, my understanding is this...
Most people do not die from being shot in a vital area equaling "instant" death. A majority die of bleeding out within 10 mins of the being hit.
This is why I ask the question, wouldnt three projectiles entering the body have a much greater opportunity for a major bleed (causing faster death) than one projectile?....and again, overpenetration....?

 

[orionengnr]

Well, that begs the question...

Three .22s or one .45?

More importantly, where does each one go?

Reinforcing the theory that shot placement trumps all...

 

[Brass Fetcher]

The potential for a handgun bullet to perform well is largely dependant upon the frontal surface area of the bullet. The idea is that, any part of the bullet is just as likely to come into contact with a vital organ, so why not increase the number of these 'parts' on a bullet, IE increase the frontal area. If the fragmenting load had a larger surface area than a JHP, all else being equal, I would say "go for the fragmenting load".

What you will likely find, is that the fragmenting approach does not work for deep penetration.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Terminal Performance of .45 ACP Aguila High Power Fragmenting?

The jello shooters don't seem to like the round but in my (admittedly less than scientific testing) I've found it impressive enough that it's what I carry in my defense 45's.

The velocity from my 3 inch Kimbers and Bond derringer is 1280fps and after entering the target and breaking into 3-4 pieces the size of 45 to 22 and scattering through the body I have to believe that it's causing a lot of damage.

And yes, I've shot many boxes of all the other defense rounds and I like most of them but I'm more impressed by the 45 Aguila.

I've tried but don't like the 9mm and 40cal Aguila because the fragmented pieces are too small.

 

[RyanM]

The fragmenting approach really doesn't work for anything. Let's say our goal is 12" penetration in a platform which fires a .40 caliber, 180 grain bullet at 1000 fps.

A conventional JHP's maximum level of performance is:
0.715" expanded diameter
12.01" penetration
51.3 grams tissue crushed

Pretty formidable. Let's try a frangible. If we assume spherical projectiles of pure lead, then the smallest the pellets can be is .23 cal (18.27 gr) to still penetrate 12" at 1000 fps. Each one crushes a mere 3.5 grams of tissue. With ten pellets, that's a grand total of 35 grams crushed. Nearly a 1/3 decrease in effectiveness.

Maybe the light and fast approach, which most frangible ammunition goes for, would work better? For .40 cal, 135 gr at 1375 fps...

JHP:
.653" expanded diameter
12.00" penetration
29.8 g crushed (though if the pressure wave theory of wounding is correct, an additional 21.4 grams would be destroyed due to the pressure wave, according to my models)

At 1375 fps, you could go down to pellets of .189 caliber (10.14 gr). Let's say you use 14 of them, for a total of about 142 gr. Close enough to 135 for government work. Each pellet crushes a hair over 2.36 g tissue, for a grand total of 33.1 g crushed. Not good.

Even if we change the pellets so that they crush as efficiently as a roundnose bullet (requiring the pellets to be bigger to still penetrate)... Heavy and slow, best you could do is 5 pellets of .295 caliber (38.5 gr). Physically improbable. 6.37 g crushed each, so a total of 31.85 g. Same ballpark as the others.

Light and fast, you could go down to 6 pellets of .25 cal (23.5 gr), still improbable. 4.55 g crushed each, so 27.3 g total. Ew.

Given that each pellet's wound track becomes a distinct, tiny hole within the first 2-3" of penetration (usually before that), prefragmented ammunition is not worth using. It's very inefficient and not a good idea.

In theory, "overpenetration" is reduced by using prefragmented ammo. In practice, you are far more likely to miss and shoot someone else, than to have a bullet pass through your intended target and hit someone else. And in that case, while the chances of rapid incapacitation of the victim would be less likely if they are hit by a prefragmented bullet (due to the small amount of tissue destroyed and the shallow penetration), the chances of eventual death would likely be higher due to the numerous tiny perforations, and the resulting wound would also probably be much harder to treat than one caused by a conventional JHP bullet. Most prefragmented designs also do not shoot through very many fewer walls than a standard bullet. They are still going to be deadly after passing through 2 or 3 interior walls.