The lost art of the .357&.44 magnum

[Barry the Bear]

We know that a revolver chambered in .357 magnum can chamber and fire magnum and the .38 special cartridges(.38 special plus p is the same cartridge dont kid yourself),Likewise a .44 magnum revolver can also chamber the .44 special round. What many people have forgotten are the "lost cartridges". With the last ammo panic it was hard to feed my 686 and sp101 with the "standard" rounds. Even my .44s were taking a hit suprisingly! Now enter the .38 short colt,.38 long colt, and the .44 russian. At my academy sports, there were/are plenty of boxes marked .38 short colt LRN made by remington,also available online are the other 2. These rounds were the precursors to the .38/357 and the .44 mag/spl cartridges. Many people do not realize that these even exist. Yes you will pay a little more cause they are obscure cartridges but its better than nothing. Or you can start reloading which has its own merits and also not so much.

 

[Modernhoglegs]

Obsolete Cartridges

I agree with you Barry.

A lot of people get Enfields and Moisan-Nagant rifles because the guns are cheap and ammo is more available than 7.62 and 5.56, but they completely miss the boat on old revolver cartridges.

(Too many action movies, and not enough Westerns I guess)

I went into the local Academy and Dick's stores recently and the only thing on the ammo shelves was 28ga birdshot and .44 Mag.

I got into reloading for economic reasons, but part of my kit was bullet molds for all of my guns blackpowder, and modern.

Slugs from .44 Russian, and .44 American cartridges may not be going all that fast, but they are still.429" in diameter. 45 ACP Hardball has long been considered an adequate fighting round, and the .44 Russian is pretty close in weight and muzzle velocity.

Don't forget that Smith made a .45 caliber round that was called the "45 Short" or "45 Schofield". It was adopted by the US Army along with the S&W Schofield break-top revolver. The Schofield round is shorter than the 45 Colt, and it will chamber and safely fire in guns chambered in 45 Colt, but the 45 Colt round will not fit the Schofield.

The Smith cartridge is why some people call the 45 Colt the "45 Long Colt"

 

[BobWright]

Modernhoglegs, I sure am glad you brought that up, gives me a chance to show off some of my cartridges. Here is the original .45 Colt and .45 S&W rounds as loaded by Frankford Arsenal for the US Army:



And commercial versions of the .45 S&W, .45 Colt Government, and the short cased .45 Colt, with the long cased .45 Colt rounds:






And headstamps of the above rounds:




Bob Wright

 

[Barry the Bear]

Bob thanks for the informative pics. I completely forgot about the schofield round as well, thanks for the heads up Modern!

 

[JRH6856]

Just don't get carried away and try to use .38 S&W in a .38 Special or .357 Mag. it's a tight fit.

 

[antiquus]

Don't forget the .32's - 32S&W -> 32S&W Long -> 32H&R Mag -> 327 Federal Mag.

Also, the last 2 can take those semi-rimmed .32acp cartridges as well.

 

[Barry the Bear]

This statement is void, if anything. The .38 s&w is a completely different cartridge than the others which are the direct anscestors to the .357 magnum.

 

[JRH6856]

This statement is void, if anything. The .38 s&w is a completely different cartridge than the others which are the direct anscestors to the .357 magnum.

Well, yes and no. the .38 S&W is certainly not a direct ancestor of the .38 Special. But that fact is not obvious to anyone looking at those two names without a knowledge of the history of the cartridges. Especially if they are holding a gun that they know is a Smith & Wesson and is .38 caliber. If anything it seems much more of a connection than .38 Special and .357 Magnum. And I have seen these mistakes made more than just occasionally. Since this is a public forum a little word to the wise doesn't hurt.

 

[Barry the Bear]

I forgot about the .32s as well. Also theres .475 LINEBAUGH and .480 ruger

 

[kanook]

Just don't get carried away and try to use .38 S&W in a .38 Special or .357 Mag. it's a tight fit.

This statement is void, if anything. The .38 s&w is a completely different cartridge than the others which are the direct anscestors to the .357 magnum.

Current Remington manufactured 38 S&W will fit in a 38 special.

 

[Salmoneye]

Current Remington manufactured 38 S&W will fit in a 38 special.

Not sure I have tried the Remingtons, but I do know that I have tried 10 year old Winchester .38 S&W in all my .357s...

They will not chamber in my Rugers, but will indeed chamber in my 686-3...

 

[Black Knight]

This thread reminds me of the first time I bought ammo for my Colt Python. I walked in and asked for a box of 38's. The counter guy came back with a box of 38 S&W. I then corrected myself and told him I needed 38 Specials. It wasn't his fault that I didn't clarify which 38 rounds I needed. No biggie but something I have always remembered.

 

[il.bill]

This thread reminds me of the first time I bought ammo for my Colt Python. I walked in and asked for a box of 38's. The counter guy came back with a box of 38 S&W. I then corrected myself and told him I needed 38 Specials. It wasn't his fault that I didn't clarify which 38 rounds I needed. No biggie but something I have always remembered.

Wait ... what?

The first time you bought ammo for your Colt Python you did NOT ask for .357 magnum? I don't know - should you even admit to that on a public firearms forum?

 

[JRH6856]

.38 Special vs. .38 S&W

 

[Modernhoglegs]

I love cartridge history!
Never fail to learn new things.

I seem to recall reading that the 357 was made 1/10" longer than the 38 Special specifically so it would not chamber in the older guns, but they forgot about the 38 Long Colt. It may have been in "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith. Guess I need to go look that up and refresh my memory.

Great pics Bob!

 

[JRH6856]

.38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .357 Mag

 

[35 Whelen]

I find it amazing the lengths some shooters will go to find something....ANYTHING...to shoot in their revolvers and yet not consider reloading!

35W

 

[Barry the Bear]

I find it amazing the lengths some shooters will go to find something....ANYTHING...to shoot in their revolvers and yet not consider reloading!

35W

Yet during the last panic, reloading components were also in short supply, so unless you had a good stock already you were just as screwed as the regular joe.

 

[35 Whelen]

Yet during the last panic, reloading components were also in short supply, so unless you had a good stock already you were just as screwed as the regular joe.

Exactly. Which is why after the first panic, many handloaders stocked up thus having plenty of components and ammunition and avoiding supply problems due to the inevitability of future panics....and make no mistake, there will be more.

Not poking fun at anyone, just scratching my head and wondering out loud.

35W

 

[Barry the Bear]

I hear you and agree that you should stock up . However when I see boxes of a caliber no one knows about I gobble it up and have fun with it. Target practice is target practice regardless of the load.

 

[CraigC]

Modern .44Colt can also be used in .44Spl's and Magnums.

Yet during the last panic, reloading components were also in short supply, so unless you had a good stock already you were just as screwed as the regular joe.

Handloaders, as a rule, don't usually find themselves in situations like that. We don't buy just what we need at the time but usually keep at least several months if not several years worth of any component we know we'll need. I don't consider myself a hoarder but I haven't missed a beat through the last year or so.

 

[rhinoh]

I find it amazing the lengths some shooters will go to find something....ANYTHING...to shoot in their revolvers and yet not consider reloading!

35W

Ditto!
The prices of factory .44 are insane...if I had to buy mine new I'd get rid of my 3 .44 revolvers and lever action....