The RUGER OLD ARMY Club

Sorry for all the confusing info on timing.. I even spent an hour on the phone talking about this..lol.. You don't time your ROA based on when the cylinder bolt/latch pops up.. It's all about simultaneous lockup of the cylinder with the full cock of the hammer and whether the cylinder lockup is slow or fast compared to full cock.. You certainly don't stretch the hand to correct for the cylinder bolt/latch popping out early....lol.. You stretch the hand if the cylinder is slow... Bob
 
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Yessir!
The "foundation" of timing is the "length of the cycle". If you don't start there, you'll keep chasing the elusive " gremlin ". So first you correct the cycle length which obviously starts from " hammer down " and ends at "full cock". At full cock the bolt locks the cylinder and this is a simultaneous event. When you have simultaneous lock-up and full cock (dictated by hand length), then you can set the bolt drop which should be basically the center of the approach (lead, if one is present) or one bolt width before the notch if an approach isn't present. This drop point can be adjusted to suit the activity the revolver will be used for such as Cowboy shooting. You may set the drop an extra half bolt width earlier.

When done, you'll have correct bolt pickup, half cock will happen at the appropriate time (dictated by hammer notches), followed by correct bolt drop and the cycle will end at full cock.


Not to confuse folks but if you don't have the correct cycle length first, and set bolt drop according to " as is", you will have a situation that 1. either requires the hammer to be pulled past full cock to get the cylinder locked (possibly leading to firing out of battery) or 2. a cyl that locks prematurely which could have the hammer /trigger /hand in a binding situation ( exaggerated wear) or worse, unable to reach full cock.

This is a simplified explanation of how to set up the action in a S.A. revolver.

Mike
 
Im afraid to ask how to set the bolt drop....lol.. I would like it to at least pop up in the approach instead of a 1/4" from it.. From looking at circled area in pic (action close to half cock) it seems logical to me if you want to affect bolt operation and not cylinder timing you would:

1) lengthen or shorten little piston that operates arm to tweak half cock release..
2) lengthen or shorten little angled end of bolt/latch arm if you want to tweak bolt drop point. In my case lengthen a hair so bolt drops later and hits approach...

Im probably wrong....lol... Bob

r2.jpg
 
Scuubbs,
You can extend the hammer plunger by lengthening the flat cut along its length. Keep in mind, you can only go so far as you will go beyond the working angle for drop and or reset. Not to worry though, plungers are easy enough (simple) to make.

Mike
 
Thanks Mike, makes sense.. Seems to be plenty of room on drop angle but who knows about reset.. Bob
 
One of my ROAs was doing the same thing with locking and binding if you moved the hammer from full cock to half cock. Hand was a tad short so it was lengthened, bolt was dropping about halfway between cylinder notches so the back end of the bolt, where you circled in your diagram, was welded to lengthen it and then it was fitted a little at a time until the bolt was dropping into the beginning of the lead cuts. Mike's right about fitting from the hammer down as everything more or less fell into place from there.
 
I had the same thoughts about adding some metal to lengthen that bolt end. To me this more directly addresses the issue (because half cock release is great and you just want the bolt held a little longer) but then I thought they were probably hardened stainless and the added metal would be more prone to wear.

As far as the hand length, my gun could be a demonstration model for perfect timing....lol.. I have performed the test very carefully a lot....lol.. and that cylinder lock and full cock fall in together perfectly timed...really... So the hand length is tits.. I still believe lowering to half cock is risky for locking and makes no sense because it does not release cylinder so why do it.. When you lower from full cock and allow trigger to set into half cock notch the only condition needed to lock the ROA up is the hand finding a hole which I believe its close to engaging in that condition...If you hold trigger and lower just below half cock allowing reset of little spring/push rod then back to half cock all is good... By no means should the ROA lock up when the gun is well within manufacturers operating specs and my new, perfectly timed gun locked tighter than Dicks hat band...lol.. Bob
 
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Just placed order with Sportsman's Warehouse for Remington #10's, 1000 caps 79.99 delivered total.. I got 500 CCI caps cheap if anyone is interested....lol.. I hate them in all my guns... Tired of wasting money on nipples and time trying to make these CCI's fire reliably. They seem to fire reliably unreliably...lol... Bob
 
LOCKUP PROOF:

I found the root cause of why the ROA can lock up when the hammer is lowered directly into half cock from full cock.. Grab your gun....lol..

Lets start hammer down finger off trigger… Draw the hammer to half cock. Now spin the cylinder with your fingers CW (from rear). Hear the clicking, that’s the hand passing over locking points on the cylinder backwards (hand spring compressing). Also notice you cannot rotate the cylinder CCW with your fingers. Thats because the hand is actually stopping this counter rotation and is engaging the index holes in back of the cylinder.. Now if you slowly rotate the cylinder with your fingers and note the exact position of the cylinder at the exact instant you hear that click you will notice they are exactly the same as the positions at full cock positions..Dead on the cylinder (even though the hand is only at about half its travel). At least on my perfectly timed gun…lol..

Strangley enough these half cock cylinder locking points are the exact same locking points as the full cock cylinder locking points. So that’s why when you lower the hammer from full cock to half cock, the hand is ready to lock because the half cock locking points are the same as the full cock locking points… Genius…

On my Colt the half cock locking points are dead in between the cylinders nowhere near full cock locking points...
 
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You're description of what happens is correct. It also tells me that your pawl (hand) is slightly short. The Ruger hole system, instead of a ratchet tooth system, behaves a little differently as to where the pawl locates (side to side) in its window. The arc of the round hole allows a slightly short hand to enter which locks the action in half cock. If a normal ratchet tooth were present it wouldn't be rounded, it would be flat (straight) and the pawl wouldn't be able to get below it and cause lockup. It is a design bug in the ROA but only when the pawl is short (which can happen in an "as new" revolver) and, it may even happen in only 1 of the 6 possible positions (check all 6).
If you lay your finger on the cylinder and (being very meticulous) very slowly bring the hammer to full cock, you'll probably reach full cock without the bolt locking the cylinder. Even just by the smallest amount . . . Of my 4 ROAs, none of them lock up at half cock in any of the 24 possible positions.

Mike
 
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My gun is perfectly timed and the hand is perfect, sorry...You really think someone like me that spends this much time thinking about this wouldn't be meticulous about doing test...lol.. Not that it matters because there is nothing wrong with a slightly out of time gun...I think your getting off point about this, the hand is supposed to lock the cylinder in half cock to allow rotation in only one direction and it's not an accident, but where these points are matters. The point is the design of the Ruger is flawed in the respect I have shown and even a slightly out of time gun should not lockup the gun and would not lock up the gun if the half cock lock points were away from the full cock lock points...So your guns are a nats ass away from being able to lock up like all the ROA's if you lower to half cock.... I know my Colt is not even close and I suspect the Uberti's, Pietta, etc are like my Colt...
 
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Ok, gnats ass or not, if that is the difference then that is the difference. A single action with perfect timing and a perfect length hand won't lockup the action (sorta takes out the "perfect" aspect) at half cock (even a ROA ). The only other possibility would be the ratchet holes in the cylinder are out of spec. I'm not trying to argue against you personally but I have worked on a "few" ROAs and you are the one asking questions . . . I described the problem and the fix several different ways and apparently to no avail. I know how they work, I even have my own setup for them so I have a clue . . .

Getting into the "perfection" of S.A. mechanics is basically what I do. When done with "dialing in" a Colt style action, just swapping the trigger and bolt screwpins can be the difference in a functioning or non-functioning revolver. Because of this, I always mark the bolt screwpin so the owner can keep the correct pins in the right location. It's the difference in the "warp" of the pin and the drilled location of the mounting holes that make this necessary. That right there is probably less than the "gnats ass".

Mike

Of the two stainless fixed sight ROAs I just received from a customer, one of them will lockup the action (letting the hammer down to half cock from full cock, just to refresh everybody of what the " problem " is) in 3 of the 6 positions. The other revolver doesn't have the problem at all.
 
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Simply stated if the half cock locking points are very close to the same as those on full cock then the hand can obviously lock into the cylinder on the dreaded lower to half cock, period.. Art seen this from the very beginning when he stated that when you lower to half cock the SLIGHTEST ROTATION OF THE CYLINDER WILL CAUSE THE HAND TO LOCK INTO CYLINDER.. Why because the half cock locking point is close to matching the full cock one and that's all that's required to lock up the gun...

If anything, new unmodified ROA's from the factory with little wear and perfect timing creates the perfect lock up storm. Where a gun that's worn in and has had the hand and plunger/spring tweaked will not create the perfect storm.... Why? Because you have some separation in the full and half cock cylinder locking points....

Sorry Mike, Didn't mean to insult you.. I look at this strictly logical and mechanical no feelings involved. Dont mind being proven wrong.. Just say "No Bob my half cock lock points are not in exactly the same place and your wrong" or "No the ROA does not have a design flaw"
 
Im only going to modify the hand length to correct the cylinder timing and not to try and fix a design flaw that does not even affect me now since I know how to handle the ROA properly... Anyway remember a slow cylinder is better than a fast one that can damage the bolt locking surface on the cylinder.
 
Add a little metal to bottom of half cock notch on hammer and make half cock rest a little higher in hammer stroke.... That will position hand for half cock only (not effect timing) a little further away from locking in an index hole during the dreaded half cock lockup.... That essentially moves the counter rotation locking point only and doesn't affect timing...
The guns problem occurs in half cock why not fix it there?

UPDATE:
I was able to cut and flatten a tiny piece of 56% silver solder (coat with flux) and insert it into the half cock notch on the hammer (removed spring and plunger and tilted hammer to ensure no solder got into where this is). Used my little map gas torch and brazed it in notch. Just filled bottom of notch a little.. Came back with my little dremel and diamond wheel blade and recut until I had a good solid half cock (not able to pull trigger) still... Now the half cock cylinder stop position is several degrees past the full cock cylinder stop position making it impossible for my gun to lock the hand in the cylinder when the cylinder is locked by the cylinder latch as it is when you lower the hammer from full cock to half cock.. Problem Solved and no more gnats ass from locking even if the cylinder is a little slow...
 
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ruger357 said:
Love that Colt
Click to expand...
Thank you. I had to braze the back strap from a Colt thunderer on, made the oak grips from an old chair, cut and crowned the barrel to 4.5", and brazed front sight blade into a notch I cut in barrel.. I wanted a much handier pistol for defense but still accurate out to 15 yards+ (No snubby) plus keep a balanced look for the big 44. Here is the first six I fired after I completed it at 30+ feet... Still debating on finish.. considering a gray or gray blue combo epoxy finish with maybe some civil war motifs...or even clear epoxy over bare polished metal... colt.jpg
 
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I asked a while ago if a Ruger Old Army was required by Federal ATF law to have a background check for purchase in Minnesota;
249986.jpg
moose1858Member
Question for the experts;
Cabelas is telling me that a Ruger Old Army requires a FFL background check, and a permit to purchase or a carry permit to buy a Ruger Old Army in Minnesota.

This is used in their gun library and is not modified and does not include a conversion cylinder.

They have asserted this is required by law and not a Cabelas store mandated policy.

Thank you in advance for your responses as I am hoping to be a member of the club -



I am still looking for advice and have been looking for an attorney for advice
I do not want to die on this hill and could easily pass the background check
However I have never been able to abide bully’s imposing arbitrarily

To be clear
It does not have a conversion cylinder
It is not modified
There is no state , local or Cabelas rule or restriction

I actually purchased this without background check over a month ago and a a couple of weeks ago they have been calling daily demanding I bring it back.

according to ATF regulations an unnecessary background check is subject to a $10k fine and loss of FFL
privileges

the reason Cabela’s state this is required is because the Ruger Old Army is not a replica of a firearm made prior to 1890 and because it can be easily converted.

I am dumbfounded by this and their harassment
 
Minnesota Law from NRA.ORG page:

Antiques and Replicas
Antique firearm means any firearm, including any handgun, with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system manufactured before 1899 and any replica of any firearm described therein if such replica is not designed or redesigned, made or remade, or intended to fire conventional rimfire or centerfire ammunition or uses conventional rimfire or centerfire ammunition which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

PIC below not from NRA, I would call it a replica of the Remington 1858 myself. I don't see any significant difference in ignition system, projectile or sights...

rugervsrem.jpg
 
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I can tell you I have studied this a lot because I have a felony conviction from 30 years ago for weed. I can tell you that the only cases I have read about where a felon has been prosecuted with a percussion weapon is when it used a scope or any ignition system other than a percussion cap (no 209 etc) like on an inline rifle.. I am betting my freedom that I can legally own the ROA.. I live in Florida which is the same as Minnesota. If cabela's is interpreting the law differently there is little you can do and there is probably little they can do.. If I was clean I would just do the background check myself...
 
moose1858 said:
I asked a while ago if a Ruger Old Army was required by Federal ATF law to have a background check for purchase in Minnesota;
View attachment 877896
moose1858Member
Question for the experts;
Cabelas is telling me that a Ruger Old Army requires a FFL background check, and a permit to purchase or a carry permit to buy a Ruger Old Army in Minnesota.

This is used in their gun library and is not modified and does not include a conversion cylinder.

They have asserted this is required by law and not a Cabelas store mandated policy.

Thank you in advance for your responses as I am hoping to be a member of the club -



I am still looking for advice and have been looking for an attorney for advice
I do not want to die on this hill and could easily pass the background check
However I have never been able to abide bully’s imposing arbitrarily

To be clear
It does not have a conversion cylinder
It is not modified
There is no state , local or Cabelas rule or restriction

I actually purchased this without background check over a month ago and a a couple of weeks ago they have been calling daily demanding I bring it back.

according to ATF regulations an unnecessary background check is subject to a $10k fine and loss of FFL
privileges

the reason Cabela’s state this is required is because the Ruger Old Army is not a replica of a firearm made prior to 1890 and because it can be easily converted.

I am dumbfounded by this and their harassment
Click to expand...

I’m with you. I hate a bully!

The Feds pass laws and create regulations by the thousands every year but this is pretty god damned clear. The ROA is not considered a firearm by the Feds (your local ATF office should be able to answer this question) nor apparently is it considered so by Minnesota statute. It sounds to me like someone in their shop screwed up when they bought the gun and entered it into the book. They found out about it after the fact and now the easiest way (in their minds) to clean up the book is to sell it as a firearm. I’ve been told this exact thing by an ffl holder in another state, his employee screwed up, entered it into the book and he couldn’t think of an easier way to straighten it out except to sell it the same way. In that case it was an 1860 Colt.
I would talk to ATF first, ask for a letter, second, I’d tell Cabela to pound sand. They can get an attorney.

“according to ATF regulations an unnecessary background check is subject to a $10k fine and loss of FFL
privileges“ I would repeat this line to their attorney as many times as needed along with the appropriate regulation from the ATF website. It’s there and it’s as clear as daylight. If not there are a few million owners of Old Armies, Knight, T/C and other inlines that are in jeopardy. Hell, Cabelas catalog lists inline rifles that are not replicas of anything under the sun!


You have to keep us posted.
 
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