Things Not to Live By

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OOOFF.. Talk about a thread that has pinged some of my instructor pet peeves.

Reading the OPs list reminded me of the guys carrying around little .22 revolvers usually with many of those very same reasons.

Add another to the list: "I don't need to carry one in the chamber because it only takes a second or two to rack the slide"

I have always said that if you are going to carry a gun for the possibility of maybe ever having to use it to defend yourself or another, look at what the people who plan on getting into gunfights do... They bring rifles, body armor and buddies and they train a lot. So, maybe not those guys. Look at the guys next down the line. The guys who go to work with an elevated change of having to use their gun. Obviously, we all don't need to be running around with batons, hand cuffs, OC, radios and the whole nine yards, but..and be patient with me a bit here while I chase a rabbit... No one, and I mean no one, in the history of ever, has come out alive from a gun fight and said, "Man, I wish this gun carried fewer bullets and I had left these extra magazines back in the squad room." Police officers are always trying to cut weight from their belts, yet I've never met a single one that downloaded ammunition. There was a really good video that came out maybe six months ago involving a very quick roadside gunfight in which one of the officer ran his 1911 dry in about two seconds and struggled to reload it while the fight was still going on. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to be the one to go dry first in a gun fight.

As for instructors that have put bullets into other people.. This question gets asked by students on a very regular basis. Once a class reaches a certain size, it's almost inevitable that someone in the class will ask if any of the instructors has ever shot anyone. It's always a guy that asks too. For the core instructor group I teach with, the answer is "Yes, some of us have." Not all of us have, and it doesn't matter. Generally, our students never can figure out which is which. We also get asked which ones of us are prior military. Some are. The rest are LEO, private security/executive protection and sport shooters. Military firefights generally have little to nothing to do with civilian self defense skills, assuming the person even service in a position that saw small arms firefights. The best thing surviving a military fire fight teaches is how not to panic in the next fire fight. That is something that is nearly impossible for an instructor to teach unless you are doing good force on force training.. and then it's the force on force training, not something coming from the instructor. For an instructor, being able to recognize deficiencies in students, connect with the student and constructively correct the student is far more important than having ever been in a firefight. What does and doesn't work in a gunfight isn't exactly closely held trade secret that only people who have been in a gunfight are awarded via secret handshakes. Being able to impart that knowledge to students though, that isn't exactly a universal skill.
 
-Bad guys are dumb-

This is a huge assumption and can lead to a dangerous underestimation of a threat. Sure lots of criminals are dumb but some aren’t and will plan ahead for a citizen that is prepared to defend themselves.
 
The mere sight of my gun will scare the bad guy away.

I talk about it all the time on this forum, I've had people try to rob me when they KNEW I was armed.

I've had people try to steal my gun right out of my holster. It goes without saying that they KNEW I was armed.

I've had people threatened to beat my ass and take my gun.

Along the same lines "Open-Carry is a deterrent".
 
A guy teaching sd stuff to others without having been in a gunfight is like taking boxing lessons from someone whose never been in a ring or music lessons from someone who has never played professionally. Theory and practice. Also, in my experience, most teachers just spread bad info these days because they have been educated by other teachers with bad info. They teach, not do. How do you know you're getting good instruction? You get bad instruction and find out the hard way the authority figure you trusted was full of crap but at the time the badge, the certificates on the wall, or service record have fooled you into thinking this person has credibility. Bad instruction is often worse than no instruction.

Bedroom chops do not translate to a real stage. Motor skills will not be deeply ingrained enough if you haven't been in stressful and unfamiliar places doing it in front of unfamiliar people for real. Simulation and classroom studies do not make up for real world experience. I thought a couple thousand hours put in my field was good enough for solo work. I had one drink and it all started to unravel. Ten thousand hours are necessary to make something breathing-level ingrained where the skill can immediately accessed at a high level of performance on demand. Even then, without routine practice skills fade quick.
 
Its definitely words not to live by
Yes.

We were trying to list things hat come up rather frequently

Another good on is "pumping the action on a shotgun will scare off the bad guy".
Yes.

To not accept it may seem counterintuitive, but it seems that outside of the police and shooting communities, many people may not recognize the sound of a shotgun being racked.

I don't need to carry one in the chamber because it only takes a second or two to rack the slide"
Yep.

-Bad guys are dumb-
Yes. Or unskilled.

The mere sight of my gun will scare the bad guy away.
Good one. It might happen and it does happen, but don't bet your life on it.

A guy teaching sd stuff to others without having been in a gunfight is like taking boxing lessons from someone whose never been in a ring or music lessons from someone who has never played professionally. Theory and practice.
That's a terrible analogy.

There are no people who have enough experience in actual civilian SD shootings to compare to one round of entry level amateur boxing, or to one violin lesson.

Also, in my experience, most teachers just spread bad info these days because they have been educated by other teachers with bad info.
Might I suggest that you select your instructors more carefully.

...and then it's the force on force training, not something coming from the instructor.
FoF training without competent instruction to evaluate and explain results is just a game--it is not training,

Ten thousand hours are necessary to make something breathing-level ingrained where the skill can immediately accessed at a high level of performance on demand.
Do you know of anyone with that much actual SD gunfighting experience?

Even then, without routine practice skills fade quick.
True.
 
There are no people who have enough experience in actual civilian SD shootings to compare to one round of entry level amateur boxing, or to one violin lesson.

I'm not sure what you meant here.

Might I suggest that you select your instructors more carefully

I've never fired a gun before. I want training. How can someone select an instructor more carefully if they know zero, or little, about the subject matter? This was my point about there being many bad instructors giving bad info in a multitude of fields these days. I received some bad info in the 90's that took me 15 years to figure out was garbage info. Now I share what I have learned and since so much garbage info is out there, what I have learned is of less value because someone who doesn't do said job for a living is making a living handing out advice about something he really doesn't actually do himself.

Do you know of anyone with that much actual SD gunfighting experience?

No. But I do know I wouldn't pay for instruction from someone who has never used a gun in a defensive, or even at least an offensive situation a time or two.
 
've never fired a gun before. I want training.
Start with some basic firearms training. Safe gun handling, shooting, reloading, clearing malfunctions....

Then look into quality defensive shooting training that covers a lot more than shoiting.

How can someone select an instructor more carefully if they know zero, or little, about the subject matter?
Do some research.

[QUOTE="fireside44, post: 11372004, member: 106030"...]I wouldn't pay for instruction from someone who has never used a gun in a defensive, or even at least an offensive situation a time or two.[/QUOTE]"A time or two" wouldn't address enough of the variables to even begin to scratch the surface.

Massad Ayoob has never shot anyone, although his father and grandfather did. Would you not pay for instruction from him?

How do you think fighter pilots are trained?

Also, having used a gun in an offensive situation would be of little help in lawful self defense.

You are substantiating the reason for this item's having been on the list in the first place.
 
How can someone select an instructor more carefully if they know zero, or little, about the subject matter?

Google.

No. But I do know I wouldn't pay for instruction from someone who has never used a gun in a defensive, or even at least an offensive situation a time or two.

So, here's the problem with that standard. Self defense shootings are very rare, even among law enforcement. Proportionally speaking, there aren't a lot of people out there that have been in self defense shootings, much less in multiple self defense shootings. So, even among the people that have engaged in violent conflict resolution, the actual field experience level is almost nothing. One or two experiences max. One needs to ask, for those one or two experiences, were they the guy that was better, or just the guy that was left? I for one would stay away from an instructor who flaunts their cred based on, "I shot a guy once" After all, they may have survived the gunfight not because of super slick skills only blessed upon gun fight survivors, but because they were wearing body armor and the other side wasn't. They didn't learn to be a gunfighter in the few seconds hot metal was flying. They either knew going in or they still didn't know coming out.

FoF training without competent instruction to evaluate and explain results is just a game--it is not training,

To be fair, you are quoting me there. I also preceded the statement with "good force on force training", and as a furtherance of talking about learning to handle stress in extremely adverse situations. The point being, the only way to learn how to process true pucker factor is to experience true pucker factor, and it is not something that can just be told to you or shown to you.
 
Self defense shootings are very rare, even among law enforcement. Proportionally speaking, there aren't a lot of people out there that have been in self defense shootings, much less in multiple self defense shootings. So, even among the people that have engaged in violent conflict resolution, the actual field experience level is almost nothing. One or two experiences max. One needs to ask, for those one or two experiences, were they the guy that was better, or just the guy that was left? I for one would stay away from an instructor who flaunts their cred based on, "I shot a guy once" After all, they may have survived the gunfight not because of super slick skills only blessed upon gun fight survivors, but because they were wearing body armor and the other side wasn't. They didn't learn to be a gunfighter in the few seconds hot metal was flying. They either knew going in or they still didn't know coming out.
Very well put indeed.

That explains it very well.

The point being, the only way to learn how to process true pucker factor is to experience true pucker factor, and it is not something that can just be told to you or shown to you.
True.

I stumbled into and foiled a robbery that was about to happen. No shots fired. The robbers fled.

I was so shaken that I could not describe the robbers or the getaway car.

My experience would be of little value to anyone.
 
Massad Ayoob has never shot anyone, although his father and grandfather did. Would you not pay for instruction from him?

Maybe, I'd have to look into it more, I'm unfamiliar with him. All you've said here tells me is that I should've taken coursework with his father or grandfather. My dad did taxes. If you want to pay me to do yours then make friends with the IRS in advance. But my dad did taxes. If I had my accounting license, but had never actually done anyone's taxes myself, would you hire me?

Also, having used a gun in an offensive situation would be of little help in lawful self defense.

Advice given would be more valid to me than the person who had never used a gun offensively or defensively at all in a life or death situation. Someone who had been in multiple unarmed or non-firearms street fights or defensive situations would have more valid advice in my opinion that a poser who never did but tries to make a living being an authority on it. I don't want to hear from anyone whose butt hasn't been on the line let alone pay for it.


Strangers on the internet. Although to your credit in my other experiences strangers on the internet are just as valid as many "experts" giving bad info, never having actually engage in whatever it is we are discussing.

So, here's the problem with that standard. Self defense shootings are very rare, even among law enforcement. Proportionally speaking, there aren't a lot of people out there that have been in self defense shootings, much less in multiple self defense shootings. So, even among the people that have engaged in violent conflict resolution, the actual field experience level is almost nothing. One or two experiences max. One needs to ask, for those one or two experiences, were they the guy that was better, or just the guy that was left? I for one would stay away from an instructor who flaunts their cred based on, "I shot a guy once" After all, they may have survived the gunfight not because of super slick skills only blessed upon gun fight survivors, but because they were wearing body armor and the other side wasn't. They didn't learn to be a gunfighter in the few seconds hot metal was flying. They either knew going in or they still didn't know coming out.

Then it is as I suspected and most of the "training" out there is given by guys selling books, dvd's, and training courses rather than hands on experiences. One or two experiences in infinitely more than someone with none. I can tell you about a subject in more detail if I have been there once or twice than if I have never been. To me, there is a huge difference between book work and course work and actual doing which basically can be equated to any field.

I'll leave it at that. Best-fireside
 
Strangers on the internet.

Odd.. So, we can safely assume that you never read product reviews before purchasing something?

Then it is as I suspected and most of the "training" out there is given by guys selling books, dvd's, and training courses rather than hands on experiences.

Where did that come from? Who said anything about selling books and DVDs? And yes, most training courses that trainers are providing are training courses... What was that even supposed to mean? Are you saying that teaching class from a syllabus is bad? Do you expect training courses to be "hey, I was in a gun fight once and here's what happened"? That's not quality training.

To me, there is a huge difference between book work and course work and actual doing...

Honest question, have you actually ever taken a real firearms training course from real instructors? The things you have said lead me to believe that you haven't taken any real structured courses.
 
I'm unfamiliar with him. All you've said here tells me is that I should've taken coursework with his father or grandfather
One was a jeweler, and on was a Bedouin trader.

Advice given would be more valid to me than the person who had never used a gun offensively or defensively at all in a life or death situation
Why?

that a poser who never did but tries to make a living being an authority on it. I don't want to hear from anyone whose butt hasn't been on the line let alone pay for it.
You really haven't looked into any of the good trainers, have you?

Strangers on the internet
Look at credentials.

One or two experiences in infinitely more than someone with none.
More, maybe, but not useful. Too many variables.

Consider the fighter pilot analogy.

Do you expect training courses to be "hey, I was in a gun fight once and here's what happened"? That's not quality training.
You beat me to it!

 
A guy teaching sd stuff to others without having been in a gunfight is like taking boxing lessons from someone whose never been in a ring or music lessons from someone who has never played professionally. Theory and practice. Also, in my experience, most teachers just spread bad info these days because they have been educated by other teachers with bad info. They teach, not do. How do you know you're getting good instruction? You get bad instruction and find out the hard way the authority figure you trusted was full of crap but at the time the badge, the certificates on the wall, or service record have fooled you into thinking this person has credibility. Bad instruction is often worse than no instruction.

Bedroom chops do not translate to a real stage. Motor skills will not be deeply ingrained enough if you haven't been in stressful and unfamiliar places doing it in front of unfamiliar people for real. Simulation and classroom studies do not make up for real world experience. I thought a couple thousand hours put in my field was good enough for solo work. I had one drink and it all started to unravel. Ten thousand hours are necessary to make something breathing-level ingrained where the skill can immediately accessed at a high level of performance on demand. Even then, without routine practice skills fade quick.

Sorry, but that's utter BS.

Just because you've managed to survive a gunfight doesn't mean you knew what you were doing. Much less does it mean that you know how to teach. Most who do survive armed encounters do so out of pure dumb, blind luck.

Some of the best coaches in sports were not the best players.

Some of the best music teachers are not the best musicians.

And some of the best defensive firearms instructors have never had to shoot anyone.
 
Observe, evaluate, and adapt.

Every situation is going to be different and for absolute sure, it will be different from sitting in front of a computer screen. YOU are responsible for your own protection. You know a lot better than me what effort your life is worth.
 
Some of the best coaches in sports were not the best players.

Some of the best music teachers are not the best musicians.

And some of the best defensive firearms instructors have never had to shoot anyone.

Good analogies. All the best coaches have played the actual game they are coaching. And the best music teachers, like a firearms instructor who hasn't used a gun offensively or defensively, went the safe (and perhaps smart way) and teach instead of put themselves in harms way, physically and/or financially. So, in closing, I guess it's wrong for me to favor getting trained, and advised, by someone qualified by hands on, real life experiences, over an instructor with none of those things, all other things being equal. Got it.
 
All the best coaches have played the actual game they are coaching.
Bad analogy.

"Playing the game" is not the same thing as having thrown or caught one or two passes in one game.

And none of todays good air combat instructors base their teaching on sorties they may have flown.

So, in closing, I guess it's wrong for me to favor getting trained, and advised, by someone qualified by hands on, real life experiences, over an instructor with none of those things, all other things being equal. Got it.
I don't think you do.

I think you are refusing to listen, failing to learn, and with little or no apparent understanding of trainers and their methods, arguing for the sake of argument.
 
What did Strother Martin say? "Some people you just can't reach,.."

As for rounds chambered; early in Israel's history there were some tragic friendly fire incidents, so for many years IDF operators were taught to chamber their weapons as they were brought to bear in combat.
Since then the realization that use of safeties and far more importantly the strict training of muzzle and trigger finger disciplines have mitigated the fear.

As a certified climbing guide with a large desert resume I was employed by certain government employees with extensive training and experience. They liked the technical training they got and reciprocated on the range a couple of times. It was invaluable to me.
I don't think that a good trainer necessarily needs actual combat experience, but those guys had LOTS of experience.

Now, when I stay at my ranch, I wake up, put on some water to heat, and grab the kit I prepared the night before and run through drills on an array of steel targets less than a hundred feet from the back door. One of them is one of those "hostage" silhouettes with the "kidnapper's" head that swings from side to side (still haven't figured out why the "hostage" has a swing away COM panel,..)

I rarely attend crowded events with the exception of my nephew's concerts, and at those I'm often backstage and get on well with his security crew.
I believe it is possible to go through life in condition yellow without stressing out, although having been robbed and been stolen from far too many times makes for a strong motivator.

The trouble is we can't use the past as standard. We are destabilizing our climate, and when it comes down to no longer being able to buy cheap food, then this country along with the rest of the world will not be as friendly a place.
I really fear for what my nephew's kids will face. The best I can do is keep my powder dry and pass along what I can.
 
like a firearms instructor who hasn't used a gun offensively or defensively, went the safe (and perhaps smart way) and teach instead of put themselves in harms way, physically and/or financially.

That's just a really tortured statement there. Let's break that down:

If <person x> is a firearms instructor -and-
Hasn't been in a gunfight -then-
Never put themselves in harms way -because-
(apparenlty) being an instructor is an either/or thing.

So, if a police officer goes their whole career without shooting anyone, does that mean they wen the safe way instead of putting themselves in harms way?

That's an interesting standard.

by someone qualified by hands on, real life experiences,

What exactly do you think people learn from surviving a single gun fight that can't be imparted to students by someone that hasn't been in a gunfight?
 
Wear your damn hearing protection. Wear your damn hearing protection. Wear your damn hearing protection

To this point, I have been worrying about this issue as I already have some hearing loss from other causes, but I am not going to be carrying around my wonderful electronic muffs wherever I go. I have seen in videos respected shooting experts wearing what appear to be small plastic fit-in-the-canal plugs on a string of the same material, in some cases while shooting guns I know to be VERY loud. Such ear pro could be worn inside the collar to be inconspicuous and if there are a couple of extra seconds available, donned. Can someone please give me more information about these? I.e. what are they actually called and what is the best brand?
 
I draw 20% disability from the VA for hearing loss. Surprisingly enough, according to the VA audiologist, the frequencies I lost the most were ones cause by exposure to jet aircraft. I guess it wasn't 20 years of weapons fire in the Infantry and 8 years in the Artillery, but the time I spent in an air assault unit riding in UH1H Huey helicopters that did the most damage.

That said, I'm not a fan of adding another thing you have to do before you react to an attack. I can see no circumstance outside of reacting to a burglar alarm in your home where you would reasonably have time to put on ear pro before you react to an attack. You aren't likely to have a couple extra seconds out there on the street to put on your ear pro. If you do have that kind of time there are other more productive ways to use it, such as moving to a position that provides you some cover or even leave the area.
 
For a typical street crime, I agree 100%. But I'm still thinking about a copycat of Jersey City. If I'm gonna wait for BGs to get to the doorway as was advised in the other thread, there might be time. I would only do it if there would be time. I guess you are thinking I will be thinking I have to put them on and could endanger myself by trying to do so, when there would not be time. That is a good point and now that you raised it I think that having understood it I would be at least less likely to do that.

In my house I thankfully have time to put my muffs on, thanks to the security doors and 3M security film.
 
For a typical street crime, I agree 100%. But I'm still thinking about a copycat of Jersey City. If I'm gonna wait for BGs to get to the doorway as was advised in the other thread, there might be time. I would only do it if there would be time. I guess you are thinking I will be thinking I have to put them on and could endanger myself by trying to do so, when there would not be time. That is a good point and now that you raised it I think that having understood it I would be at least less likely to do that.

In my house I thankfully have time to put my muffs on, thanks to the security doors and 3M security film.


When I said wear your hearing protection it was a general statement. It hasn't happened in a while but there have been two or three threads started on this board in which some IDIOT asks if he should forego wearing hearing protection to the range to get his ears used to the noise.

True story sis.

I'm going to agree with Jeff White and say then if you actually had time to put on hearing protection you would have time to get the hell out of Dodge.

Having said that, in practice, in training

Use your hearing protection any time you use your gun.

Or even if you're just mowing your lawn before you start the lawn mower put on a pair of earplugs.

Go back and read my first post there's going to come a time when I go completely deaf because I didn't
 
When I said wear your hearing protection it was a general statement. It hasn't happened in a while but there have been two or three threads started on this board in which some IDIOT asks if he should forego wearing hearing protection to the range to get his ears used to the noise.

True story sis.

I'm going to agree with Jeff White and say then if you actually had time to put on hearing protection you would have time to get the hell out of Dodge.

Having said that, in practice, in training

Use your hearing protection any time you use your gun.

Or even if you're just mowing your lawn before you start the lawn mower put on a pair of earplugs.

Go back and read my first post there's going to come a time when I go completely deaf because I didn't
Agree with "idiot" as the proper characterization of someone who asks what you related.

The scenario I am worrying about is very specific. If BGs are on their way in I have no way to get out, the store is tiny and crowded with only one door, unless maybe there is another one going through the storage area. In Jersey City they used long guns (= much louder than handguns) and started shooting into the store from outside the building, then made their way inside.
 
I can see no circumstance outside of reacting to a burglar alarm in your home where you would reasonably have time to put on ear pro before you react to an attack. You aren't likely to have a couple extra seconds out there on the street to put on your ear pro. If you do have that kind of time there are other more productive ways to use it, such as moving to a position that provides you some cover or even leave the area.
My thoughts exactly!

One idea would be a handgun with a suppressor, but it would not be something that I would want to carry in the house.
 
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