Things That Instructors Say I Don't Believe

[94045]

I know just enough to be dangerous but somethings instructors say I really don't believe.

If you have a pistol capable of shooting the 1" X-Ring out of the target (Group and proper sight settings) and you are missing the whole target at 5 yards it's not trigger control, grip,sight picture (I've heard them blame it on all these), pulse breath control or the fact your shaking like a willow tree in a hurricane. You are flinching (or at least anticipating and depressing muzzle) plain and simple.

I have tried numerous grips, wonky trigger pulls , screwy sight pictures, ignoring breathing and gripping so hard I'm trembling like I'm going to faint and have yet to be able to get it out of the black zone much less off the paper.

If that makes me the student that all instructors hate so be it. But I just hate it when I see someone depress the muzzle to the point I can see it with the naked eye and the Instructor says trigger control. Do they really believe this or is it a matter of trying to get the students mind thinking about something else to the point they don't flinch?

 

[fastbolt]

One of the things I used to try and impress upon new LE firearms instructors was that you can't "fix" someone's problem if you don't properly identify the problem in the first place. If a symptom of some underlying problem is mistaken for the actual problem it can become frustrating to both instructor and student.

Next, I told them that simply repeating the litany of all the "check list boxes" of common shooter problems/corrections they put into their mental Rolodex in their firearms instructor training isn't necessarily doing anyone any good.

I repeatedly tried to emphasize to them that upwards of 95% of being a successful LE firearms instructor on any given day is knowing how to identify problems and learning what actually "needs fixing", and if there's more than 1 problem that requires correction, knowing how to prioritize it and not over-load someone.

Many of the physical postural, grip, eye/hand coordination, breathing and focus issues shooters face can be addressed by helping them learn how to apply many of the things they've already learned how to do for other tasks in their everyday lives. Once you can help someone realize how to address the physical requirements, then you can work on helping them learn and instill the "software".

It's also helpful to learn and remember how to apply the lessons commonly taught in training geared to teaching adult students, meaning adult learning styles (Visual, Auditory & Kinesthetic). Not everyone responds as well to the same teaching methods, let alone the same personalities.

So, yes, even as an instructor it used to annoy me when I'd see and hear some other instructor simply spouting some canned litany of common "corrections" to shooters, without taking the time to actually assess and understand what was needed by some particular shooter.

Then again, I always felt that learning to become a firearms instructor ought to be apprenticeship program. Unfortunately, that's hard to do in this day and age when someone can take some class, get their certificate and just start teaching, and especially if they aren't doing it alongside an experienced instructor who can help them avoid the usual pitfalls newly minted instructors can easily (and unknowingly) trip over.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Jeff White]

There are too many “instructors” who only know how to run a safe range and what the book says can cause problems. Very few programs teach a prospective instructor to really diagnose a problem.

That’s why time spent with someone who really knows how to diagnose a shooter’s problem is worth it. The late Louis Awerbuck and Pat Rogers had that ability, Ken Campbell has it.

Being able to shoot well is only a small part of what it takes to be an effective instructor.

 

[psyopspec]

Do they really believe this or is it a matter of trying to get the students mind thinking about something else to the point they don't flinch?

Who exactly? And did you try asking them about it?

 

[94045]

Who exactly? And did you try asking them about it?

I've seen multiple Instructors do this.

So I wondered if they had a method to the madness and I just didn't understand their true motives.

It is slowly dawning on me that a difference exist between an instructor and the individuals who play one at some of our local ranges.

 

[John Joseph]

Instructors are human, therefore imperfect just like you and I.
It is far more important to find an instructor you respect and can communicate with.
I've been fortunate with the instructors I've had the pleasure to study under(and it definitely is a pleasure.with a good instructor!)

Flinching is pretty easy for an instructor to spot and there are several proven solutions available, so I would have to bet either
1) your instructor isn't spending enough time watching you shoot
2) your instructor isn't very knowledgeable or
3) the problem is something else.

How are you at Bullseye at 50' or 25 yards?

 

[94045]

Instructors are human, therefore imperfect just like you and I.
It is far more important to find an instructor you respect and can communicate with.
I've been fortunate with the instructors I've had the pleasure to study under(and it definitely is a pleasure.with a good instructor!)

Flinching is pretty easy for an instructor to spot and there are several proven solutions available, so I would have to bet either
1) your instructor isn't spending enough time watching you shoot
2) your instructor isn't very knowledgeable or
3) the problem is something else.

How are you at Bullseye at 50' or 25 yards?

 

[edwardware]

. . . You are flinching (or at least anticipating and depressing muzzle) plain and simple.

In my experience, almost ALL inexperienced male* shooters flinch, and because it's all in their head it's a difficult error to address. I usually have them shoot very slowly off a bag to prove to themselves that it's really them doing it (not the gun).

*Interestingly, I've found it less common among the women I've taught. Probably related to listening more closely. . .

 

[Jeff White]

*Interestingly, I've found it less common among the women I've taught. Probably related to listening more closely. . .

I attribute it to women having fewer bad habits picked up from hollywood to unlearn.

 

[TikkaShooter]

*Interestingly, I've found it less common among the women I've taught. Probably related to listening more closely. . .

I met my best fishing buddy ever mother and sister. His sister and us went fishing.
To make a long story short. We were yakking about fishing and his sister said women are stupid. Which for the obvious reasons I ignored. After she said it twice; my bud said ask her why.. To avoid all the PC conflicts I said Monica, your brother said to ask why did you say women are stupid?
She smiled and said I was stupid enough to do what Kevin said rather than what he does..

 

[crestoncowboy]

I usually have them shoot very slowly off a bag to prove to themselves that it's really them doing it (not the gun).

I use 1 well placed snap cap. Then everyone there knows what the problem was.

 

[herrwalther]

I use 1 well placed snap cap. Then everyone there knows what the problem was.

At one point around 2009 or so, the Army was looking to change their marksmanship qualifications. One of the stipulations was each magazine had between 1 and 3 dummy rounds loaded. As many as 9 dummy rounds out of 90 if I recall. For the soldier to practice immediate action drills on the range. The idea eventually got nixed for reasons unknown to me. My unit did run the proposed changed course of fire a few times and I far preferred it over the standard test. Another one of the changes I remember was the prone supported position was replaced with standing in a fake window/doorway wood cutout. That change really separated the shooters from the non shooters.

 

[JeffG]

You really can't be comfortable shooting a firearm if you can't convince yourself that the object at the end of your arm going "bang" won't hurt you. That has to be conquered within. Hearing instructions is not the same as listening to them.

One technique I have used with students is taping the sights, or pointing the gun without the sights at a blank sheet of paper, or a reversed bullseye. My rationale is that people don't sights to hit the spider on the garage wall with bug spray, or to hit the debris on the sidewalk wit the garden hose; the brain is capable of those calculations.

Putting rounds downrange without the pressure of incorporating so many skills, it a more relaxing manner can show a shooter that hits are possible with a "crude" point. Coming back to the sights after that, can bring about better results.

 

[taliv]

There are too many “instructors” who only know how to run a safe range and what the book says can cause problems. Very few programs teach a prospective instructor to really diagnose a problem.

That’s why time spent with someone who really knows how to diagnose a shooter’s problem is worth it. The late Louis Awerbuck and Pat Rogers had that ability, Ken Campbell has it.

Being able to shoot well is only a small part of what it takes to be an effective instructor.

had a conversation with someone today about this... they were describing a well known uspsa grandmaster's class that went something like this:
<instructor shoots amazing demonstration> "ok do it like that"
students: "how did you do that?"
instructor: "do you want to see me do it again?"

If you have a pistol capable of shooting the 1" X-Ring out of the target (Group and proper sight settings) and you are missing the whole target at 5 yards it's not trigger control, grip,sight picture (I've heard them blame it on all these), pulse breath control or the fact your shaking like a willow tree in a hurricane. You are flinching (or at least anticipating and depressing muzzle) plain and simple.

while i generally agree with you, i have seen a lot of people, especially younger people, who have weird eye issues, somehow line their sights up with one eye and then line the target and front sight up with the other eye and miss the target wide left or right. also seen people who use way too much finger push the gun pretty far left or right.

i've never really tried to figure out why people who flinch almost always flinch low. but i'm glad they do. better than missing the berm.

 

[WestKentucky]

Flinch is almost impossible to CURE. It is very easy to remediate. Just think for a second about any other sport where repetition is key to consistency. In bowling the instructors move people around by boards, and adjust toe angles and such, but if the bowler isn’t consistent then they are just wasting everybodies time. Likewise with Golf, an instructor will adjust a persons stance, hold, and angle, then swing.... but again if there’s no consistency then there’s nothing to fix. Now, back to shooting... put a person so close that they can’t miss on paper. I have put one guy as close as 3 yards shooting at a full size silhouette and just watched him jerk the trigger hard causing impact to go up and right ridiculously. I then settled him down, slowed him down, and put him on bags so that he would get used to (and repeat) aiming and deliberately pulling the trigger. Build consistency.

But then there’s guys like me who are consistent but atrocious. I have a natural golf shot that hooks so hard that I’m out of bounds usually at about 50 yards and then it comes back in and bounces across the fairway at 250. I have had multiple pros try to straighten my shot out and with a “proper” shot I can’t get any consistency so they have all given up and told me to go back to what I was already doing. Blading a sandwedge out to 275, with no more than 30 ft of elevation and breaking balls regularly... but by golly there is consistency and it’s workable.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I'm not an expert by any means but heres my .02.

I spend several days a week dry firing, at least one day live fire and shoot a IDPA match 5 times a month.

I can dry fire without moving the gun indefinitely. I can live fire shoot pretty good, decent, whatever.

But throw in a snap cap or I run dry I still flinch a bit every time.

What's ironic for me though is that I tend to shoot better at comps where I'm under pressure and on the clock versus when I'm running drills at home, regardless of a possible flinch.


I personally think some folks can work through a slight flinch and be good shooters even though its technically reinforcing bad habits.



Obviously that's not making an excuse for the basics of grip, sight picture (where applicable), trigger control etc. But if those are well established I think one can "work through" a minor flinch even though that's not the optimal solution.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you have a pistol capable of shooting the 1" X-Ring out of the target (Group and proper sight settings) and you are missing the whole target at 5 yards it's not trigger control, grip,sight picture (I've heard them blame it on all these), pulse breath control or the fact your shaking like a willow tree in a hurricane. You are flinching (or at least anticipating and depressing muzzle) plain and simple.

I agree that big misses are not a problem with sight picture, grip, breath control or tremor.

I also agree with the last sentence, however, I believe that flinching/anticipating are classified are trigger control problems. Trigger control is depressing the trigger without moving the gun and not flinching/anticipating is part of that skill.

https://www.agirlandagun.org/training/pistol-trigger-control/
"Trigger control is the act of manipulating the trigger to fire the gun without disturbing your sight alignment. ... The shooter should press the trigger smoothly so that the sights remain on the target."

https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2019/3/22/trigger-control/
"The NRA uses the general term “trigger control” to describe the act of moving the trigger and firing the gun without disturbing aim. "

Clearly if the bullet isn't hitting where the sights were at the beginning of the trigger activation, the aim has been disturbed and that falls into the category of a trigger control problem.

 

[bdickens]

What's ironic for me though is that I tend to shoot better at comps where I'm under pressure and on the clock versus when I'm running drills at home, regardless of a possible flinch.

I suspect that's because during the match, you are concentrating on "hit the target x number of times within x seconds " rather than "don't flinch."

 

[Old Dog]

I also agree with the last sentence, however, I believe that flinching/anticipating are classified are trigger control problems. Trigger control is depressing the trigger without moving the gun and not flinching/anticipating is part of that skill.

^ This.

 

[Obturation]

I have to focus to conquer the flinch with hard recoiling guns. I can do it well but fatigue will set in (mental & physical) after a while . Some guns I can shoot 500 before I'm spent and some guns it's 20 . just depends on my ability to focus. I think flinch is a source of poor trigger control as well as other issues but if you have perfect trigger control that would include control of the flinch. So some instructors maybe don't elaborate properly or possibly relate the two. For me breathing and stance are secondary while sight picture and trigger control are primary. Works for me.

 

[1911 guy]

WestKentucky and Taliv both hit on key points, in my opinion.
1) Flinch is an automatic response and can't be "cured", but it can be temporarily mitigated. Stop shooting for a while, it will return to some degree.
2) An instructor should be able to do a few things well, the top two are demonstrate proficiently and communicate clearly.

 

[PWC]

I'm goingto talk about shotguning first.....It's like hitting a baseball...you don't look at the bat while you swing, you watch the ball, and the brain does all the necessary calculations to bring the bat to the ball. Same with a shotgun. Relax and don't overthink it. Teach new comer to hit rising straight in bird, that point where it "hangs" is easy to see and hit resulting in shooter confidence. Take a dime store mirror and rework a cork or dowel glued toward the lower front of the mirror. Put the loosely fitting cork in the muzzle and have the student shoulder the gun. Adjust thier cheek weld until they get the proper sight picture, put some moleskin on the stock to help get the feel before muscle memory tales over. Of course you have already made sure of the dominant eye and gun fit. Use the patterning board to show where the properly pointed shot goes. If for some reason, the student is hitting reasonably regularly, don't be quick to jump in...wait for the teachable moment when the student is open to a change. Otherwise, they are likely to keep doing what they are doing with partial success. And, girls are easier to teach, thanks to John Wayne.

 

[entropy]

Females are easier to teach, whether rifle, pistol, or shotgun. I was a 4-H Shooting Sports Leader for ten years, am currently a HS team Trap coach, and taught rifle and pistol in the Army when we had bolos on qualification. They listen better, and don't have testosterone-inflated egos. You have to find a way to communicate safety rules and shooting tips effectively, and no two people will receive them the same way.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I can see it with the naked eye and the Instructor says trigger control. Do they really believe this or is it a matter of trying to get the students mind thinking about something else to the point they don't flinch?

I've seen multiple Instructors do this.

So I wondered if they had a method to the madness and I just didn't understand their true motives.

Sorry I'm so late to this discussion...to which there is an extremely simple answer. Addressing your quotes above
1. Yes they really believe it because it's true
2. There is not madness involved nor is there an ulterior motive
What you seem to be misunderstanding is that flinching, jerking, or slapping are all correctly addressed through trigger control...what is more accurately called trigger management.

If you can see the trigger dip as each shot is released, that shooter is not pressing the trigger smoothly to the rear until release, but is rather snatching at the trigger to make the shot go off when the sights appear on target...that is a trigger management issue

 

[9mmepiphany]

i've never really tried to figure out why people who flinch almost always flinch low. but i'm glad they do. better than missing the berm.

Their shots go low because they are slamming the 4-6lbs of pressure it took to overcome the trigger release into the frame behind the trigger...rather than the 1lb if they had prepped the trigger correctly. At the same time, they are tightening their whole hand in a sympathetic response which levers the muzzle downward. The shots go left, for a right handed person, because they are curling the trigger finger as they slam it to the rear