Things That Instructors Say I Don't Believe

[RetiredUSNChief]

I know just enough to be dangerous but somethings instructors say I really don't believe.

If that makes me the student that all instructors hate so be it. But I just hate it when I see someone depress the muzzle to the point I can see it with the naked eye and the Instructor says trigger control. Do they really believe this or is it a matter of trying to get the students mind thinking about something else to the point they don't flinch?

I, too, know just enough to be dangerous. But most importantly, I know enough to know that I don't know.

In the world of engineering, what that statement means is that I'm well grounded enough in the engineering principles that I know enough to recognize when things fall outside normal or expected parameters and to seek the appropriate guidance...whether that be from drawings, technical manuals, or other engineering resources. I will "pick up the phone and call someone", if you will.

From my own background in naval nuclear propulsion, Admiral Rickover had this to say:

Facing the Facts: "Another principle for managing a successful program is to resist the natural human inclination to hope things will work out, despite evidence or doubt to the contrary. It is not easy to admit that what you thought was correct did not turn out that way. If conditions require it, one must face the facts and brutally make needed changes despite considerable costs and schedule delays. The man in charge must personally set the example in this area."

You also cannot properly identify a problem with certainty unless you carefully inspect/observe it first...with a mind open to the facts as they really are and not what we want them to be.

If an instructor is not paying close, personal attention to the student under his instruction, then he cannot say with certainty what is causing his bad marksmanship. EVERYBODY flinches...it's a natural, instinctive behavior. But flinching can be controlled.

And, contrary to your statement which I quoted above, many other things DO contribute significantly to poor marksmanship. I can cite a specific example from personal experience.

My first pistol was the AMT Automag II. An excellent pistol, very accurate, and fun to shoot.

My second pistol was the Colt 1991A1. Also an excellent pistol, as accurate out of the box as I could wish for, and I ran hundreds of rounds through it the first day I took it shooting.

My third pistol was the Beretta 92FS. All of the sudden, I couldn't hit squat. My rounds were all over the place...yet I still had no problems with my first two. It wasn't "flinching", or it would have affected me with my other pistols. And I had untold thousands of rounds through my other handguns, not to mention others I've shot before them.

Had I had someone observing me, they might could have identified my problem sooner. As it was, it wasn't until I forced myself to do some extremely slow fire, bench shooting with my hand and pistol supported enough to take out any significant movement while I was concentrating on a smooth trigger pull.

My shots immediately improved. So I studied the trigger in comparison with my other two pistols...and the trigger pull is different than them. The AMT and Colt triggers were both triggers which pulled straight back (I don't know what it's called, so bear with my description). The Beretta trigger, however, pivots around a pin at the top of the trigger.

That's all it was...I needed to learn a different trigger pull. And I rapidly became as good a shot, if not better, with the Beretta as I was with the other two.

Yeah...I admit some instructors I've seen on video (I've yet to take any formal classes) grate on my nerves. BUT...if I'm attending a course, I fully intend to go with an open mind and follow my instructor's lead. Odds are they're a better shot than I, and odds are they've got quite a bit more ammo down range than I. And they've probably got a LOT more firearms training than I do. It would be a waste of my time (and money) to attend such courses only to ignore what my instructor was trying to put out.

There is often more than one way to do anything...and many of them may be perfectly acceptable. Unless it's unsafe, I don't think I would ignore or dismiss what an instructor would be teaching out of hand. That's not why I'm seeing the instructor.

 

[94045]

When you say missing the whole target at 5 yards, how big of a target are we talking?

We often do dot drills with cadets with 2” circles, and if you do anything poorly enough you can miss the whole dot.

We do demonstrate that poor sight picture and poor grip can still get good hits on a dot, but that poor trigger work usually leads to misses.

Like others have mentioned, I consider flinching to be part of trigger control.

In the case of a first time student recently? With some shots completely missing the entire full size silhouette. Not just the target area, the whole paper. Most of.the shots where in an area about the size of a beach ball from the center to the lower left of the paper.

Maybe I'm not defining trigger control correctly. To me trigger control is what you do with your finger and at most includes.tightening of the grip during trigger pull. Apparently some people include arm and upper body motion in anticipation of recoil as trigger control. I have heard one instructor call what I perceive as flinch as "Muscling the Shot" which makes sense more than "Trigger Control" to me.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Maybe I'm not defining trigger control correctly. To me trigger control is what you do with your finger and at most includes.tightening of the grip during trigger pull. Apparently some people include arm and upper body motion in anticipation of recoil as trigger control.

Trigger Control, or Management, is pressing the trigger smoothly straight to the rear without disturbing the sight picture...it does not include arm and upper body motion/movement. However, there is observable body movement which is indicative of improper trigger control...that is what a teacher uses to confirms suspicions and is used to explain it to the student to correct the technique. There is a common mistaken belief that improper technique is corrected by telling the student what they need to do. The correct way to teach the correct technique is to explain to the student what to feel for when the technique is incorrect and what the correct technique feels like.

An example of observation of unrelated movement as an indicator: looking for the brim of their hat oscillating vertically. They can shoot fairly well but can't hold a group. That isn't trigger related.

I have heard one instructor call what I perceive as flinch as "Muscling the Shot" which makes sense more than "Trigger Control" to me.

Muscling the Shot is grip related. You can have good trigger control and still muscle a shot off your POA

I'm always hesitant to correct the use of terms in descriptions because folks are often invested in that term as part of their understanding. But in this instance it might be helpful. "Flinch" is a verb meaning an instinctive reaction to "fear, pain, or surprise"...which be definition means that it occurs after that other action (ignition), which wouldn't affect where the shot would strike. Anticipation is what occurs before and is usually characterized by jerking/slapping the trigger

 

[94045]

Trigger Control, or Management, is pressing the trigger smoothly straight to the rear without disturbing the sight picture...it does not include arm and upper body motion/movement. However, there is observable body movement which is indicative of improper trigger control...that is what a teacher uses to confirms suspicions and is used to explain it to the student to correct the technique. There is a common mistaken belief that improper technique is corrected by telling the student what they need to do. The correct way to teach the correct technique is to explain to the student what to feel for when the technique is incorrect and what the correct technique feels like.

An example of observation of unrelated movement as an indicator: looking for the brim of their hat oscillating vertically. They can shoot fairly well but can't hold a group. That isn't trigger related.


Muscling the Shot is grip related. You can have good trigger control and still muscle a shot off your POA

I'm always hesitant to correct the use of terms in descriptions because folks are often invested in that term as part of their understanding. But in this instance it might be helpful. "Flinch" is a verb meaning an instinctive reaction to "fear, pain, or surprise"...which be definition means that it occurs after that other action (ignition), which wouldn't affect where the shot would strike. Anticipation is what occurs before and is usually characterized by jerking/slapping the trigger

I think one of the issues I may have when watching different instructors is the use of different terms for a given action.

I've seen instructors that apparently use "Flinch" to refer to the uncontrolled physical reaction to the fear of recoil thus anticipating the trigger break. I agree that "anticipating the shot" is likely a better description.

I would assume teaching the mental discipline to just "allow the shot to go off" is more difficult than correcting something like a grip problem.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I would assume teaching the mental discipline to just "allow the shot to go off" is more difficult than correcting something like a grip problem.

It is more difficult, but with the right instructor and a little coaching, the shooter can at least get started putting rounds where they belong.

Old habits die hard and all that.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

There is a common mistaken belief that improper technique is corrected by telling the student what they need to do. The correct way to teach the correct technique is to explain to the student what to feel for when the technique is incorrect and what the correct technique feels like.

Well put.

The instructor for this kind of activity should be proactively guiding the student through the correct motions, explaining the hows and whys.

I never studied martial arts formally, but I used to spar with a brother of mine a lot when younger. Understanding the body as a biological machine is important to proper form and execution of so many things, whether martial arts, body building, proper form during work (manual labor or at the desk), or even even writing. Anybody who understands, for example, how to use a sledgehammer properly can easily out perform and out last someone who doesn't when breaking up concrete...even someone who is physically much stronger.

The biological machine of the human body interfacing properly with the inanimate machine of the firearm is likewise important. How and why do we utilize certain stances? How and why do we obtain a controlled sight picture? How and why do we grip the firearm for proper control? How and why do we squeeze the trigger?

When you understand these things, then proper control becomes easier and practice will be properly focused on the correct techniques.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I would assume teaching the mental discipline to just "allow the shot to go off" is more difficult than correcting something like a grip problem.

It's just a matter on knowing how to explain it in a manner that their preconceptions will allow them to accept. When I work with OCD shooters, can have the worst case of jerking the trigger because they are so investing in sight alignment, I'll have them shoot a DAO pistol or revolver. By having them concentrate of a smooth DA trigger stroke...no stopping or slowing down allowed...it is easy to accomplish a perfect trigger release.

An issue with over gripping is usually cured by building the grip up from the ground. I have them start with a completely limp wrist at the end of en extended arm with their palm facing down...makes it easy to see when they start tensing up...that's another reason it is easier to teach women to shoot, they usually don't have preconceptions of what to do

 

[94045]

It's just a matter on knowing how to explain it in a manner that their preconceptions will allow them to accept. When I work with OCD shooters, can have the worst case of jerking the trigger because they are so investing in sight alignment, I'll have them shoot a DAO pistol or revolver. By having them concentrate of a smooth DA trigger stroke...no stopping or slowing down allowed...it is easy to accomplish a perfect trigger release.

An issue with over gripping is usually cured by building the grip up from the ground. I have them start with a completely limp wrist at the end of en extended arm with their palm facing down...makes it easy to see when they start tensing up...that's another reason it is easier to teach women to shoot, they usually don't have preconceptions of what to do

Might explain why I do pretty well with a J-Frame M60 despite having a really hard time getting my thumbs back far enough not to block the trigger and.my hands absolutely swallowing the Uncle Mike's Boot Grip. Almost looks like I'm cupping it until you realize my dominant hand is in danger of hammer drag and my offhand is wrapped around half the trigger guard.

 

[.38 Special]

I often see "groups" several feet wide at 7 yards. This is particularly prevalent at CCW qualifying, but is quite regular on any weekend at our local ranges. Flinching has a lot to do with it, but I have also found that many of these folks have never been taught anything at all about how to use the sights and do not understand how critical they are.

Back when I was teaching on a regular basis, I kept a .22 revolver in my kit. An explanation about how sights work - along with the demand that the front sight be given undivided attention during the entire shot sequence - would be followed by a few rounds of snap caps, then a few rounds of mixed live rounds with caps, and then to live rounds excusively. That never failed to get shooters into the black.

There obviously is far more to mastering firearms than that, but I think we do a disservice to new shooters by worrying them with advanced concepts before introducing them to the above basics.

 

[Hartkopf]

you nailed it in the bold.

You are in the right position, but honestly, I think you may be 'over thinking' and psyching yourself out.

Next time you hit the range, try this:
1. Dry fire to determine how much (little) pressure it takes to get the hammer to fall.
2. load
3. use the same pressure and take the trigger all the way to the rear as far as it goes (hit the rear 'wall'). Ignore the recoil. Let the gun rise.
4. bring your sights back on target
5. allow the trigger to reset.
6. repeat 3

this drill makes sure that you are not coming off the trigger too soon.

sometimes shooters will activate the trigger and come off the trigger as fast as possible. this can be bad for good follow through on the trigger.

I had everybody's advice in mind when I shot yesterday but this little drill really seemed to help my flinch. Pulling through all the way to the rear helped me forget the exact point the hammer was going to drop. Also I've probably been trying to over control recoil, so letting the gun rise also helped.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I had everybody's advice in mind when I shot yesterday but this little drill really seemed to help my flinch. Pulling through all the way to the rear helped me forget the exact point the hammer was going to drop. Also I've probably been trying to over control recoil, so letting the gun rise also helped.

GLAD IT HELPED!

Thanks for posting that!

Makes me feel good.

 

[Old Dog]

Most of the talk in this thread has centered around the actual mechanical aspects of shooting. Frankly, I think there's more crap spewed by "instructors" about the actual combat aspects of having to use deadly force. If I have to listen to one more instructor tout the virtues of speed or tactical reloads that should be done during that mythical "lull in the gunfight" I'll throw up (especially if there's been no mention of finding cover or even moving).

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Most of the talk in this thread has centered around the actual mechanical aspects of shooting. Frankly, I think there's more crap spewed by "instructors" about the actual combat aspects of having to use deadly force. If I have to listen to one more instructor tout the virtues of speed or tactical reloads that should be done during that mythical "lull in the gunfight" I'll throw up (especially if there's been no mention of finding cover or even moving).

LOL great post.

"A Man has to know his limitations" instructors especially.

I get a little suspicious about anyone talking about what "combat" is like or going to be like, honestly.

Most instructors haven't seen combat, so why try to instruct on it?

Me, I can help with shooting skills, I can help with safety, I can help with movement, use of concealment/cover, etc.

IMO There is a difference between a shooting instructor and a combat instructor and it's fairly large.

 

[Old Dog]

Good points. Seems a lot of ex-military (vets of the recent conflicts) have gravitated toward instructing courses for the armed citizen. Even though having seen combat in the streets of Fallujah or the mountains of the Hindu Kush simply doesn't necessarily qualify one for instructing courses for the new CCW license holder down at the local gun club. There's also the fact that there aren't, these days, that many current or former law enforcement instructors with significant gun-fighting experience out there, either (at least in my state, anyway). There are however, a lot of suspicious posers abounding, though. I continue to be amazed by the sheer numbers of guys claiming to be ex-military who are experts in pistol-craft, as though we are to believe that no matter the branch of service, everyone in the military receives substantial training for instructing pistol-shooting.

 

[bdickens]

The only pistol I ever saw during my 7 1/2 years on active duty was my own that I kept off post.

 

[TikkaShooter]

Good points. Seems a lot of ex-military (vets of the recent conflicts) have gravitated toward instructing courses for the armed citizen. Even though having seen combat in the streets of Fallujah or the mountains of the Hindu Kush simply doesn't necessarily qualify one for instructing courses for the new CCW license holder down at the local gun club. There's also the fact that there aren't, these days, that many current or former law enforcement instructors with significant gun-fighting experience out there, either (at least in my state, anyway). There are however, a lot of suspicious posers abounding, though. I continue to be amazed by the sheer numbers of guys claiming to be ex-military who are experts in pistol-craft, as though we are to believe that no matter the branch of service, everyone in the military receives substantial training for instructing pistol-shooting.

What my MOS was is my business; however, I was well trained with small arms beyond the norm for 11B types.
I competed for years until after I moved a few times for work. Competing is fun and I'd recommend it to anyone. Don't plan on winning; however, plan on learning and having a heck of a good time.

To get a permit, I've taken CCW courses; some were good and others were ridiculous.

That all being said teaching my wife to shoot was a wake up call for me. Simply said with new shooters go back to the basics. No, not those basics, the real basic basics or back when you didn't know squat except you were going get to shoot a real gun.

First, I taught her to aim and shoot; then, how to point shoot. I taught her to read pistol correction charts which show what one is doing wrong; then I explained it.. If one doesn't know what a pistol correction chart is, do a search.

I told her to pick out her own pistol. Because I read a lot of firearm literature, typically, when a man walks into a FFL, it is buy a 9 mm and with women, buy a .380. She told the clerk, she wanted a hammerless snub nose in .357; you know point and plug. His response was to show her a .380 Glock. She adopted the tone all married men know and said look my husband has plenty of that kind of "stuff." I was proud of her; I thought next comes the mom speech; y'all remember how mom was the greatest travel agent ever because she could send you on a guilt trip in minutes?
Another salesman took over and sold her what she wanted. As he knew what he was doing; he let her shoot it and sold her a set of grips too..