Time to go on offense to take care of this mass shooting problem

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That's not true at all, Most teachers are going to panic and as a long time competitive shooter I don't agree with you, I would rather they put real guards who do just this for a living, than multi task teachers into gunfighters. I would like to see a simulation of what might occur if people who trained a few times were confronted by a shooter, and had to pick out the shooter from the kids, while making sure their bullets went where they were supposed to. My wife shoots, so where you get that from is ridiculous, this is not about carrying gun, it's about skill levels. And if teachers were going to train with professional trainers twice a month, it might work, but just like every other government program, it won't happen. Just put Vets, ex military shooters who have the skillset to be able to pull this off. If someone is middle age and doesn't carry or shoot a gun ever, this is not for them.
Wow, in this case, a teacher - unarmed - virtually sacrificed his own life in an attempt to take down this badguy. Had he been armed this event would likely have ended differently, with far fewer casualties.
 
Wow, in this case, a teacher - unarmed - virtually sacrificed his own life in an attempt to take down this badguy. Had he been armed this event would likely have ended differently, with far fewer casualties.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing.

Likely? We don't know that.

What we DO know is that the possibility to more equally defend the kids was handicapped by removing the option of being armed.


Kids are at school about 30% of the day.

How many of us are wanting to be handy capped the same way 30% of the day?

Many of us are because of laws or just by our own choosing.

But it's practically un American and anti 2A to want the RKBA option to be taken away from people.

IMO, of couse.
 
So you're saying it's no good having peace officers in schools either, since they are not "sniper quality".

You are not required to reach that mark for any of these, nor concealed license holders who could equally find themselves defending their own life, or third parties in a crowded place.

There are basically three responses to gunshots; run like hell away from the source being one, panic and freeze - cower and hide. A few, very few might fight, even if the odds are against them.

In such an environment there are going to be opportunities where a badguy is in relative isolation. Minimizing casualties is the goal, and the second an identifiable badguy is in view and relatively clear of anyone else ...bang bang bang...

It really is that simple, and that is exactly where any peace officer present, private contractor, or good guy with a gun will be.
You can't know that. Just like that cop froze up what makes you so sure the teacher is suddenly going to turn into John Rambo. And that he has the presence of mind to set traps for this guy or guys in the midst of that kayos, let alone not cause more of a problem than already exists. Most teachers are Liberals in Coral Springs Florida, and hate guns, You could see that if you watched the TV special the other night ,your plan may work in another state but not in Coral Springs. Most of the parents in that particular school are anti-gun. Just like the teachers. The teachers and coach were indeed heroes but not Gunfighters. I sincerely doubt that 10% of those kids parents own a firearm, I know my son in law doesn't and won't allow them in the house. When I asked him if he wanted me to leave him any of my guns, when the time came, he said he would not touch them. Let's assume that most of those kids parents are the same, don't you think that the teachers in that type of area feel the same way?
 
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You can't know that. Just like that cop froze up what makes you so sure the teacher is suddenly going to turn into John Rambo. And that he has the presence of mind to set traps for this guy or guys in the midst of that kayos, let alone not cause more of a problem than already exists. Most teachers are Liberals in Coral Springs Florida, and hate guns, You could see that if you watched the TV special the other night ,your plan may work in another state but not in Coral Springs. Most of the parents in that particular school are anti-gun. Just like the teachers. The teachers and coach were indeed heroes but not Gunfighters. I sincerely doubt that 10% of those kids parents own a firearm, I know my son in law doesn't and won't allow them in the house. When I asked him if he wanted me to leave him any of my guns, when the time came, he said he would not touch them. Let's assume that most of those kids parents are the same, don't you think that the teachers in that type of area feel the same way?
Freeze up? It can happen to anyone. PO, contractor, pick any category you like.

In this case the guy basically threw himself at the badguy knowing he was very likely to take bullets. Does that sound someone who would freeze up if he had been armed?

You reap what you sow. If none of these folk want to arm themselves, the police are going to wait outside til it's over, and you don't want to hire private professionals, well, be prepared to possibly see some of your kids in the morgue some day.

And as an afterthought on your earlier comments about paid people to protect being more reliable than teachers I would say, I'm not so sure.

Sure there are some teachers who should not be teachers, some who are good well intended who like it but that's it, and some who see these kids almost as their own. Our charging would be hero sounds like one of the latter to me.

I work as a private contractor now, and my observation is that the experience requirements for many in this business are too low for this kind of task, and taking risks to protect someone else's kids would not be high on many of their list of priorities as individuals. Exceptions yes, in general no.

Peace officers have in general good intentions in the latter regard, but at a school level are not fielded in sufficient numbers on site to deal with this kind of thing head on, on demand. One reason could be demands of other policing in the area, and the other is likely funding - they're expensive.

A volunteer program of vets and ex cops might be the best route. There are private organizations like Oath Keepers that do this for private institutions and businesses, etc already.

Bottom line is, allow teachers to be armed if they please, choose one of these other options, or just keep your kids sitting rabbits for slaughter when they're at school.
 
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And give teachers/protectors more options so they can engage the shooter at close or longer distances with less risk:
  • Pistols they can carry on person
  • Availability of bullet-proof vests (personally issued or checkout each day)
  • Available ballistic body shields so teachers/protectors can engage at close distance with shielding
  • Shotguns/Rifles with bullet-proof/tactical vests with loaded magazines available in locked boxes situated in key/secure locations throughout the school so teachers/protectors can engage the shooter at longer distances/from safety of cover.
 
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That's a great and affordable gadget. It's safer to lock him out than engage him, when you aren't a professional.
And lock all other students out in hallways where there might be no escape.

Useful for individual students who might find a utility closet or other normally unlocked door. But locking all classroom doors might set many up for death, and impede good guys with guns.
 
I just found this thread and haven't had the time to read it all yet.....

I know multiple people that, prior to last week's FL shooting, were in the category of "I don't like guns. But if you want to have them fine. I don't get it....but I get that there are people who do and enjoy them.....for whatever reason."

These people are now, since the FL shooting, in the category of "I've had it. We've been listening to you gun people's proposals and solutions for how to stop kids getting killed - and it's not working. I now want guns banned." One said to me specifically "If I could vote today to ban and confiscate guns I'd do it."

We have got to figure out how to stop kids from being killed.
 
RPZ said

So you're saying it's no good having peace officers in schools either, since they are not "sniper quality".

You are not required to reach that mark for any of these, nor concealed license holders who could equally find themselves defending their own life, or third parties in a crowded place.

And in response, george burns says,

Just like that cop froze up what makes you so sure the teacher is suddenlygoing to turn into John Rambo.

How do you think that RPZ is counting on teachers turning into John Rambo?

It doesn't seem like he's saying that AT ALL.
 
You don't have to make precision headshots to be effective.

In the Army, we were taught the virtues of "suppressive fire" where kill shots were not necessary and even kicking up dirt in front of enemy was effective as long as enemy stopped shooting.

Same for active shooter. If gunfire towards shooter stops shooter from killing children and especially if shooter runs away from children, then teacher's less than accurate gunshots would be considered effective.

Even if shooter returns fire at the teacher (hopefully behind cover), at least the shooter is not killing children.

Suppressive or distracting fire does couple more crucial things - Buy valuable time for children/teachers to escape and responders to reach the school to neutralize the shooter.

So teachers with mediocre shooting skills could still save children's lives.
 
Well let's address this "he froze" thing. There is freezing under the direct presentation of a deadly or serious threat or circumstance, and there is choosing not to proceed (or to retreat) in order to stay out of harms way obeying the instinct of self preservation. Freezing can occur in any circumstance where one is in fear of losing their life or serious injury. I've been there once when I had a gun pointed at me. In this case deputy simply chose not to expose himself to the risk. And perhaps rightly so.

Emphasized, or used to be emphasized in some, perhaps many police academies (and this is also so in the private sector) is that your first priority is .... your own safety. And many live by this. This deputy was alone, and if he had 30 years in - no spring chicken. I have no idea of his physical fitness state. To go into a building alone, blind as it were, with a potentially unknown number of armed - shooting - badguys takes some guts, and acceptance that you may not come out on your feet. The prospect of leaving your wife a widow to save someone else's child might be a tough choice.

There are shepherds, sheep dogs ... and there are hired help.

A school with 3,000 students in several buildings needs more than one deputy with a loaded pistol and two spare magazines. So referring to my post above, a dozen or two armed teachers, four or five contracted guns or armed public servants is closer to a reasonable measure. Five contractors is expensive. Five public servants is very expensive. A dozen or more armed teachers costs nothing.
 
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How can a teacher who isn't a gun person be expected to fire at a target that is moving amongst hundreds of kids?, he is responsible for every shot he fires. So what happens if the teacher starts shooting without knowing where those rounds are going to end up. He or she could easily kill more kids than the shooter. If these rounds go through walls and kids are hiding behind them, then what. This is a stupid thing to consider, you need sniper quality people to shoot into crowds and hit their target.
We all know many cops can't shoot for crap, so if you give them the same training the police have, in some places that is little to no training. Plus Reloads and firing on the run, it's going to be a mess. Imagine when a teacher hits another student by mistake, because he didn't know the bullet flight or time it would take to get there. I would not want that job, with too many moving parts. Treating them like what used to be called 600 schools when I was kid, is a better idea. One way in and one way out. Put your metal detector there and 2 guards, these new schools have too many entrances and exits, along with too many buildings, they need to build them higher instead of wider. It would take time but forget the beautiful campuses' and concentrate on safety.
You can also have emergency doors that open if there was an attack, to allow everyone to escape, but are locked during normal hours.
Are you against concealed carry as well, for ordinary citizens? Because they carry in crowded places like restaurants, malls etc?
CC has proven to reduce crime (see the book "more guns less crime" by John Lott)
98% of mass shootings happen in gun-free zones. So if it's OK for our kids to stay in non-gun free zones for most of their time, why do they have to be in a "gun-free' zone in a school?
Why can't good citizens who are license to carry in restaurants, and other crowded places like movie theaters that also have kids , be allowed to carry in a school zone?
 
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I just found this thread and haven't had the time to read it all yet.....

I know multiple people that, prior to last week's FL shooting, were in the category of "I don't like guns. But if you want to have them fine. I don't get it....but I get that there are people who do and enjoy them.....for whatever reason."

These people are now, since the FL shooting, in the category of "I've had it. We've been listening to you gun people's proposals and solutions for how to stop kids getting killed - and it's not working. I now want guns banned." One said to me specifically "If I could vote today to ban and confiscate guns I'd do it."

We have got to figure out how to stop kids from being killed.

Yes, agreed, that's the point of this thread. We need to become proactive to stop this nonsense.
Banning ARs will solve nothing, most repeating weapons including revolvers provide a sufficient rate of fire to put out 30+ rounds a minute, with a few hours of training. So do we ban ALL firearms, or do we fix the problem?

2 things will work: remove the artificial gun free zone designation for schools, and reduce psychotropic drug prescription that is so rampant.


To make this happen, we need to start emailing and calling.

Email is great. But calling on the phone seems to work the best.
During the sandy hook aftermath, many of us called once a week at least to our rep and senators in the US congress. Calling the WH was a waste of time in those days.
Now, I am emailing once a week, and calling once a week: Congressman, 2 Senators and the WH comment line.
Takes 20 min a week, and we need to do that again so they understand that anti RKBA is a real vote loser.
And, also, please consider donating $25 each to GOA &/or NRA-ILA, (cost of a couple boxes of ammo). They need money to support pro RKBA folks, if we need to primary people like Rubio or others, when the time comes.

This insane attack on RKBA by the left that just started may be just the thing to wake us all up , and ensure we keep the HOUSE and SENATE in 2018, so as continue the appointment of conservative Supreme Court appointments.
 
What I maybe didn't make clear enough in my post is the following:

If gun owners don't come up with some new ideas in how to respond to these situations I believe we're going to lose in a larger way than we think we will. The frustrations I commented on in my post that people I know are telling me is, basically, "Gun owners....we've tried your ideas. THEY'RE NOT WORKING." So us simply re-stating our positions more fervently doesn't help....and might hurt. We've been advocating for armed guards for years - and this time there was one! It made no difference. Yes - we can dive into all kinds of reasons and rationales as to why, but the result is the same: There was someone there with a gun and it didn't stop the carnage.

I know one person who said to me "I used to not oppose semi-automatic firearms. And basically I still don't oppose them. But I'm so pissed at gun owners I'm going to seek out banning them just to send them a message. I'm sick of it."

To me what seems different about FL is seeing more and more people in this category - they were "tolerant" and are becoming "anti".

Yes, agreed, that's the point of this thread. We need to become proactive to stop this nonsense.
Banning ARs will solve nothing, most repeating weapons including revolvers provide a sufficient rate of fire to put out 30+ rounds a minute, with a few hours of training. So do we ban ALL firearms, or do we fix the problem?

2 things will work: remove the artificial gun free zone designation for schools, and reduce psychotropic drug prescription that is so rampant.


To make this happen, we need to start emailing and calling.

Email is great. But calling on the phone seems to work the best.
During the sandy hook aftermath, many of us called once a week at least to our rep and senators in the US congress. Calling the WH was a waste of time in those days.
Now, I am emailing once a week, and calling once a week: Congressman, 2 Senators and the WH comment line.
Takes 20 min a week, and we need to do that again so they understand that anti RKBA is a real vote loser.
And, also, please consider donating $25 each to GOA &/or NRA-ILA, (cost of a couple boxes of ammo). They need money to support pro RKBA folks, if we need to primary people like Rubio or others, when the time comes.

This insane attack on RKBA by the left that just started may be just the thing to wake us all up , and ensure we keep the HOUSE and SENATE in 2018, so as continue the appointment of conservative Supreme Court appointments.
 
We've been advocating for armed guards for years - and this time there was one! It made no difference.
One (or 4) cowardly individual doesn't represent all the gun owners, security guards or LEO's in the country.
There was someone there with a gun and it didn't stop the carnage.
He wasn't there he was outside and may as well has a pacifier rather than a gun.
 
Yes. Another horrible issue with the gun control route is it isn’t going to stop mass shootings and kids are still at risk. This is worse. It’s sad. Like the govt can’t,won’t protect the kids all they can do is go after an inadimate object in desperation. I say armed teachers for the class room and armed guards for the schools. Stop it once and for all. Push for it to Congress.
 
Agreed and understood. What I'm saying is, to the people I'm encountering that does not matter. From their perspective the gun community had at the school what they wanted: a guy with a gun. It didn't work.


One (or 4) cowardly individual doesn't represent all the gun owners, security guards or LEO's in the country.

He wasn't there he was outside and may as well has a pacifier rather than a gun.
 
Agreed and understood. What I'm saying is, to the people I'm encountering that does not matter. From their perspective the gun community had at the school what they wanted: a guy with a gun. It didn't work.
And one guy with a gun is not enough on a property that size with three thousand students. Those who simply throw their hands up and try and say this was our (gun owners) best try and say "we've tried it your way it doesn't work" simply do not understand it from a practical point of view.

Allowing teachers to be armed if they wish individually, a pair of guns walking the hallways, a pair patrolling the grounds/perimeter would be more more like it. It then comes down to money. The cheapest, very cheap, is armed teachers and volunteer walking guns.
 
Agreed and understood. What I'm saying is, to the people I'm encountering that does not matter. From their perspective the gun community had at the school what they wanted: a guy with a gun. It didn't work.
I know the type. Well meaning but poorly informed, easily swayed by popular opinion, AKA Sheep.
 
Hey guys this is finally coming out as my step daughter had told me, Four sheriffs deputies hid behind cars while the shootings were taking place, I got this from the NY Post, you can google it, I couldn't paste in the link, but it's all over now. She told me this and I thought maybe she was confused, but no she was right on. They were there for several minutes when the shooting started. This should be out on the news very soon if not already, they sat there behind cars waiting, I don't know what they were waiting for, but the whole thing might have been stopped if they are right about the 5 minutes that they sat there and did nothing.
 
We never said we needed "a guy," we need defenders willing to save lives. A lot of teachers/etc talk a good game about protecting their charges, but wilt and holler the instant we even suggest they have the means to do so. Cowards, cower; even running away is braver than duck & cover.
 
If the idea of armed teachers is put into effect, it won't be uniform throughout the country. We may see it in small towns in Texas, but we won't see it in Chicago, New York, or any other big cities where the teachers' unions are strong. Nor will we see it in affluent suburban areas where the parents would be opposed. (Incidentally, these are the kinds of places where most school shootings have taken place to date.) So, the shooters will pick their targets to minimize the possibility of armed intervention, and the problem will go on.
 
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