To clean or not to clean barrels

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LiveLife

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Didn't want to hijack Potatohead's thread on 40S&W loads so starting a new thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10319978#post10319978
Potatohead said:
how clean is clean for a bbl? Seems like I can never get to the point where I put a patch through and it comes out white...or even almost white...or whitish. Frustrating.
Walkalong said:
bds said:
I was taught in the Army to clean the barrel until patch cloth came out clean.
That's too much IMHO. Clean them reasonably well. No need for squeaky clean.

Then of course is the no cleaning pistol barrels at all theory.
And Walkalong posted a link to Schueman Barrels article which I remembered reading in past years but filed away in my mind as I did not use chlorinated solvent (brake cleaner) with my firearms at that time - http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/Webfile_Barrel_Cleaning.pdf

With my limited one year knowledge as Biochemistry major in college before I changed majors, I reread the article with interest, particularly comments by Glen Fryxell, a PhD chemist and author of excellent ebook From Ingot to Target, who essentially did not endorse mixing of cleaning solvents and to avoid anything that has chlorine because ammonia reacting with chlorinated solvents form ammonium chloride salts and chloride ion is very corrosive to steel.

The article concludes with cautions of not using harder than barrel bore brushes (like stainless brushes) and not using solvent(s) that may corrode steel surface with prolonged contact.

So, here are some questions/discussion points:

1. I have been using Hoppes #9 solvent to clean and BreakFree CLP/motor oils to lube my guns for the past 25+ years. As I responded to Potatohead, I soak my barrels with Hoppes #9 and scrub with copper bore brush and run patches until clean. Hoppes #9 is used to clean the rest of firearm and residual solvent is left on parts surface. Drops of BreakFree CLP/motor oil is used to lube metal to metal contact points.

Hoppes #9 solvent contains ammonia but since I am not using with chlorinated solvent, there shouldn't be ammonium chloride salt concern. But is there concern for prolonged ammonia contact with steel?

2. While many shooters may not readily mix different solvents, they may use different solvents over time. Let's say the firearm was cleaned with Hoppes #9 solvent for one range session but after several sessions that really gunked up the firearm, chlorinated solvent was used to clean. And if Hoppes #9 was used on subsequent cleaning, there would be mixing of ammonia and chlorine to form ammonium chloride salts that may not be wiped off completely.

So, how come we are not seeing more threads that report, "Wow, my guns are corroding away after being cleaned with Hoppes #9 and brake cleaner"? Is the corrosion amount small enough that most shooters are not aware of it and/or unintentionally accepting corrosion as normal bore wear from friction with bullet's bearing surface coupled with fouling residue?
 
1) a barrel is a wear item. Whether it lasts one year or 100 years depends mostly on what you demand out of it and how hard you're looking at what it is capable of. Most shooters can't get 1 MOA out of a rifle and don't need to for their goals. A degradation of accuracy by a full MOA over the course of a few years shooting would not be noticed by the majority of shooters. (Benchrest / F class guys or the better Highpower shooters excepted)

2) corrosion is noticed by most shooters if they forget to clean a rifle after black powder or old corrosive surplus ammo. In other words, if it rusts so bad you can see it. The level of corrosion introduced by mixing cleaning agents is probably microscopic. Or if visible is probably chalked up to a random "whoops, guess I forgot" sort of thing.

3) probably the large majority of shooters tend to use more traditional cleaning products and not that many reach for the Brakleen to scrub down their rifle. Some do and some use some other aggressive things with unexpected results. (Ask me how I know. )
 
After shooting well over 100,000 rounds in a Gen2 Glock 17, I thought I needed to replace it due to wear/loss of accuracy. When another match shooter I shot with found out, he said "You are selling your match gun?" and bought it on the spot and continue to shoot matches. He said the trigger was smooth and the "tired" G17 shot better than his newer match guns. That was 15 years ago, and last I checked, he was STILL shooting matches with it. :eek:

That "tired" G17 saw nothing but abuse of 1000-2000+ practice sessions and cleaned only with Hoppes #9 between range sessions/matches often with liberal soaking with Hoppes #9 and rough brushing and careless wiping with paper towel and drops of BreakFree CLP for metal contact surfaces. I sometimes went to the start box with black solvent dripping from the pistol. :D

Same treatment was done to my two G22s when I switched match caliber from 45ACP/9mm to 40S&W.

Since I have 50/100 yard groups documented for new 9mm carbines (17" Just Right and 16" PSA), I could monitor bore wear at 1000 round increments (I have Performance Tool W50045 Inspection Camera with color display from Costco) and track shot group deterioration.

[YOUTUBE]3Zg6_zKnYdA[/YOUTUBE]
 
Look at the percentage (minutia) of Ammonium Hydroxide in Hoppes #9
It is primarily Ethanol and Kerosene

With what stays on the metal combined with evaporation I believe it is non issue.

Especially if you use a dry patch when finished or run a patch of say CLP or other oil after and then a dry patch.

http://www.hoppes.com/Hoppes/files/9d/9dc3db35-232c-4353-bc5c-9b3e79cfc834.pdf

You probably get more Ammonium Hydroxide in the beef and poultry that you eat! (unless you are a non meat eater;))

We saw those cameras at Costco and folks where joking about doing their own Colon scans!:eek::)
 
Look at the percentage (minutia) of Ammonium Hydroxide in Hoppes #9
It is primarily Ethanol and Kerosene

I use a ton of Ed's Red and had never even considered the Kerosene... I also have never seen any type of corrosion in any of my barrels.

After shooting well over 100,000 rounds in a Gen2 Glock 17, I thought I needed to replace it due to wear/loss of accuracy
.

I am curious what bullets were you using primarily BDS? That is a very impressive round count for jacketed bullets. On the other hand, I have barrels that have seen nothing but lead bullets and I don't think they will ever wear out.
 
I have an Armi Jager AP-74 acquired used in 1979, a Ruger Mini-14 bought in 1980, a Charter Arms AR-7 bought in 1981 and a 5.7 mm Johnson Carbine bought used in 1982 or 1983. From the time I first shot any of them they have all been cleaned the same way:
  • A patch with a few drops of Sears Penetrating Oil was run down the barrel a couple of times. This patch was also run into the slide's gas cylinder on the Mini-14.
  • A clean patch was run down the barrel a couple of times to remove the residual penetrating oil and "scrub" the barrel. This patch was also run into the Mini-14's slide's gas cylinder.
  • A patch with a few drops of Sears Household Oil was run down the barrel to oil it. Again, this patch was run into the Mini-14's slide's gas cylinder.
  • A fourth patch with a few drops of the same Sears Household Oil was used to wipe down the barrel, slide, bolt and trigger group.
  • Whichever rifle it was was reassembled and stored. Every now and then, at no particular schedule, a bronze brush was used on the barrel in advance of the penetrating oil.
This is the condition these rifles were in when they went into the gun safe in 1993, not to be seen again except for an occasional glance until 2014. All of them emerged with barrels and all metal parts bright, shiny and free of any rust or corrosion and all still capable of delivering greater accuracy than I am physically able to shoot.

This may not be a recommended or textbook way to clean and maintain rifles, but it worked effectively for me in very unusual conditions.

By the way, I am still using the oil that I bought from Sears back in 1979. It still flows out of the can nice and clear with its familiar oily smell with no gummy residue or change color which suggests that whatever antioxidants Sears' contractor put in the stuff are really working and that may have something to do with how the rifles fared while they were locked away in the safe for a couple of decades.
 
If your concern that your barrel is not getting clean, switch to Butches Bore Shine. It cleans a lot faster than #9.

Now if the barrel has a rough finish will always be a chore to clean. If that's the case use some Butches Bore Paste and polish your bore. It will clean up the rough spots and make it clean easier.
 
Blue68f100, bores of my pistols are usually "broken in" with several hundred rounds of jacketed ammunition, then shot with jacketed/plated/lead/coated lead bullets.

Carbine barrels have been shot with mixed rounds of jacketed (Winchester/Montana Gold/RMR) and thicker plated bullets (Berry's/RMR) from the start with no break in.

All the barrel surfaces are smooth and cleans readily to white patch with Hoppes #9 - Glocks (along with 9mm/40S&W KKM/Lone Wolf barrels), M&Ps, Sig 1911, Taurus PT145/TCP738, Just Right carbine with 9/40/45 barrels and PSA 9mm carbines.

Schwing said:
bds said:
After shooting well over 100,000 rounds in a Gen2 Glock 17
I am curious what bullets were you using primarily BDS?
Mostly Montana Gold jacketed bullets along with Berry's/Rainier plated bullets.
Rule3 said:
We saw those cameras at Costco and folks where joking about doing their own Colon scans! :eek::)
Shhhh ... Don't give my wife any ideas ... :D
 
I think the trick is to use modern synthetic lubricants with metal conditioning properties rather than harsh solvents. That way the carbon doesn't adhere to the metal, so it's easier to clean. Better for your health, and for the guns.
 
Question #1 was I have used Hoppes #9 solvent for 25+ years without noticeable wear/corrosion of barrel surfaces and no degradation of accuracy that I have noticed. So is Ammonia in Hoppes #9 low enough in concentration to not worry?

Question #2 was if someone was to clean barrels with Hoppes #9 and chlorinated solvent like brake cleaner, will it damage/corrode the barrel enough to affect accuracy?
 
Question #1 was I have used Hoppes #9 solvent for 25+ years without noticeable wear/corrosion of barrel surfaces and no degradation of accuracy that I have noticed. So is Ammonia in Hoppes #9 low enough in concentration to not worry?

Question #2 was if someone was to clean barrels with Hoppes #9 and chlorinated solvent like brake cleaner, will it damage/corrode the barrel enough to affect accuracy?

I seriously doubt it.

Hoppes #9 formula has changed drastically from the original which was pretty much aviation jet fuel if I recall. Think it even had Benzene in it.

Today's version is no where what the original was.

Ammonia is good for cleaning copper there are only two brands that remove copper effectively KG 12 and M Pro 7 copper (for homemade use 10% industrial ammonia. I use a the Hydrogenated Brake Klen (red can) to de grease barrels and have no issues. it evaporates so fast there is nothing left.

It is TCE (as is electronic cleaner spray) Brownells sells it by the gallon to degreaee parts before painting/coating, The fumes are toxic BUT the Green can Non Hydrogenated is very flammable (contains acetone which will eat up plastics, o rings finish on wood etc).

As mentioned above the % in #9 is so small how could it eat into the metal?

Any solvent will probably clean a gun barrel as well as the expensive name brands, WD 40. Kroil, Liquid Wrench. Kerosene etc. Home made Eds. Red (I hate the smell of tranny fluid!) Elbow grease with a bore brush and some fluid works the best.

It's all snake-oil as to cleaning, that said some have better rust and lube properties which has been discussed.
 
grandpajack posted"

I think the trick is to use modern synthetic lubricants with metal conditioning properties rather than harsh solvents.

If you read my previous post, you would see that using "ancient" "organic" solvents and "pre-modern" (i.e. pre-pre 1980s vintage) oils adequately protected my rifles in storage for more than 20+ years. And this all came from using 1979-vintage Sears Roebuck and Co. canned oil.

So, tell me what "trick" it is that you are using to base your conclusion that "modern synthetic lubricants" are preferable?

As a counterpoint, I can point to 20+ years of ZERO DETERIORATION in storage for multiple rifles using only 1979 Sears vintage penetrating oil followed by 1979 Sears Roebuck & Co. Household Oil.

What can you cite to as to similar storage and similar preservation?
 
Everything I read says there are no "new" oils, just different names and mixes. Of course the synthetics are "new", but are they any better than the best real oil?

We have some guys with degrees in that area, so maybe they'll respond. They perk up in some up the what gun oil is best threads. Those are always wonderful threads. :p

What ever oil Sears sold back then must have been good quality stuff.
 
Blue68f100, bores of my pistols are usually "broken in" with several hundred rounds of jacketed ammunition, then shot with jacketed/plated/lead/coated lead bullets.

Carbine barrels have been shot with mixed rounds of jacketed (Winchester/Montana Gold/RMR) and thicker plated bullets (Berry's/RMR) from the start with no break in.

All the barrel surfaces are smooth and cleans readily to white patch with Hoppes #9 - Glocks (along with 9mm/40S&W KKM/Lone Wolf barrels), M&Ps, Sig 1911, Taurus PT145/TCP738, Just Right carbine with 9/40/45 barrels and PSA 9mm carbines.


Mostly Montana Gold jacketed bullets along with Berry's/Rainier plated bullets.

Shhhh ... Don't give my wife any ideas ... :D
My Sig 229 has over 23k rounds through it and is the hardest gun I have to clean. It's a 9mm gun with a 0.357 bore (oversize). If you were to look at the barrel it does not/did not have a very smooth finish. My 1911 with the Kart barrel cleans up with 4-5 patches just using Eds Reds. So number of rounds does not impact accuracy but the roughness does effect how easy it is to clean. I used the Butches bore paste and reduced the clean up time to 1/2 after polishing. Some say to just shoot them without cleaning and let the copper fill in the roughness.

For those using Ed's Red, I use Amsoil ATF transmission fluid which is a full syn which is low odor.

All of the good cleaners we had in the 60's & 70's have gone by the way side to be more environmentally friendly. This is pretty much reduced or eliminated all of the good cleaning agents used. One of the reason I switched over to Ed's Red for general cleaning. I use Butches Bore Shine for the hard stuff. I also still have some of the original CLP oil for surface metal protection.

The main advantage of Syn oil is it's broader usable temp range. Some oils are still flowable to -60F or more. And have an upper limit that is around 500F or greater. They are thin film oils with extremely good wetting and adhesion properties. The last article I read said that regular non syn motor oil only contains <10% oil. The rest is all additives to make it meet spec. Is the multi-vis additive that causes rings to stick when it breaks down in regular oils.
 
A friend has a target rifle with what appears to be hard carbon fouling in the throat and rear bore. He says it looks really nasty in a borescope even after conventional cleaning and accuracy is affected. None of his cleaners touch it, not even JB. He says the copper is long gone. I gave him some MPro 7 which was all I had that he had not used. No report.

Any suggestions?
 
The thread has morphed into two different issues.

Cleaning and Lubrication/protection.

Two entirely different things. Despite what all the "modern snake oils"tell us

Most new lubes contain Teflon PTFE.

Any oil if used frequently will protect and lube, it is a question of what evaporates,

This has been posted many times, think even bds has posted it.:)
One of the better reviews about Lube and Corrosion

http://ronkulas.proboards.com/thread/274/review-comparison-gun-care-products
 
In the slide test it does not prove good protection form wear, just which ones are slick and not sticky. Even the least slick tested is OK for a slide on as gun. Does it give wear protection is the question. I want wear protection.

Rust protection is completely different, and well documented in the testing.

And as you said, cleaning is a whole nother issue.
 
From the start I have used an aggressive copper solvent to eliminate copper fouling between shots/groups and allow bullets full contact with the entire bore surface so that it breaks in evenly. I agree with earlier post that the barrel is a wear item, but I wouldn't tear my hair out over a little wear when it comes to smoothing in a new barrel: yes tooling marks and copper fouling in a new barrel help hold pressure, but so do lubricants and coatings in a properly smoothed bore IMO.
 
grandpajack posted"



If you read my previous post, you would see that using "ancient" "organic" solvents and "pre-modern" (i.e. pre-pre 1980s vintage) oils adequately protected my rifles in storage for more than 20+ years. And this all came from using 1979-vintage Sears Roebuck and Co. canned oil.

So, tell me what "trick" it is that you are using to base your conclusion that "modern synthetic lubricants" are preferable?

As a counterpoint, I can point to 20+ years of ZERO DETERIORATION in storage for multiple rifles using only 1979 Sears vintage penetrating oil followed by 1979 Sears Roebuck & Co. Household Oil.

What can you cite to as to similar storage and similar preservation?
Read the OP's question. He's asking about using Hoppe's and brake cleaner. I'm suggesting using lubricants that make that unnecessary. The modern synthetics have particles that penetrate the pores of the metal, and that keeps the carbon from adhering to it. Thus, you don't need harsh solvents to clean. No harsh solvents, no chance of forming salts. Do you see where I'm going now?
 
grandpajack said:
Read the OP's question. He's asking about using Hoppe's and brake cleaner. I'm suggesting using lubricants that make that unnecessary. The modern synthetics have particles that penetrate the pores of the metal, and that keeps the carbon from adhering to it. Thus, you don't need harsh solvents to clean. No harsh solvents, no chance of forming salts. Do you see where I'm going now?
Thank you grampajack and others for your replies, comments and discussion points; however, we should be more specific about our discussions as grampajack pointed out. As Rule3 posted/linked, there have already been numerous comprehensive corrosion tests done by THR and other forum members like this one - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=751408

What I have learned from them is while most lubricants provide protection to varying degrees, some excel against continuous exposure/salt water like WD-40 Specialist Corrosion Inhibitor (not WD-40 Specialist PTFE) and FrogLube/Coconut oil. Although I live on the coast with significant exposure to moisture and salt water, my longtime practice of cleaning with Hoppes #9 and lubing with BreakFree CLP/motor oil has worked well for the past year (but my tools in the pole barn are rusting like crazy!!!).

But this thread is not about which lubricant is better or my tools rusting in the pole barn (I am replacing cheaper tools with stainless/aluminum tools and working on better rust proofing more expensive tools). It's about the Schuemann Barrels article that points out that some solvents contain ammonia and when mixed with chlorinated solvent like brake cleaner, can produce ammonium chloride salts which can be corrosive to steel. So I posed the following questions for this thread:


1. Should we clean or not clean our barrels? My practice has been to clean pistol/rifle barrels until patch comes out clear but as Walkalong pointed out, absolute clean or slight fouling residue on barrels may not be much of an issue. I know, bench rest crowd will be chanting a different mantra but for practical purposes, let's keep the shooting application to recreational range practice/plinking and not bench rest match shooting.

2. Will residual solvent cause any corrosion of barrels? So Hoppes #9 has "small" amount of ammonia that (as far as I know) has not produced enough corrosion in my barrels for me to notice (Since I am starting with new carbines, I can monitor bore surface erosion and accuracy trends at 50 yards moving forward). Are there solvents with enough corrosives that we should stay away from or be sure to clean/wipe off completely? Are there solvents without ammonia that I should consider using (although will keep Hoppes #9 on hand for back up as it has worked well for me)?

3. Is there any negative outcome from unintentional mixing of solvents that contain Ammonia (Hoppes #9 or other solvents) and Chlorine (Brake cleaner)? While I won't mix solvents, mixing of residual solvents could happen if different solvents were used at different cleaning episodes (for example, cleaned with ammonia containing solvent then on next cleaning, brake cleaner used).
 
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Well, when Gun Scrubber first came out, many match shooters praised it and sprayed their match pistols at the end of matches while gleaming and singing praises how they didn't have to clean their pistols.

When someone mentioned it was essentially brake cleaner, match shooters stopped using Gun Scrubber and started singing praises of brake cleaner. :rolleyes: (they are "frugal" bunch calculating cost savings to fraction of a grain of powder for powder selection - why Titegroup is so popular with some) Then some pointed out they should use non-chlorinated brake cleaner ... now we know why. ;)

While I did try Gun Scrubber/brake cleaner and it worked, I went back to old school method of cleaning/scrubbing with Hoppes #9 and BreakFree CLP/motor oil. I mean, cleaning my Glocks takes like couple of minutes after a match! :D
 
Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5343246#post5343246
atblis said:
The MSDS for Gun Scrubber lists

Hexane
Isopropyl Alcohol
Carbon Dioxide

There's a cheap brand of brake cleaner in Walmart that appears to be mostly alcohols, and is probably most similar to Gunscrubber

Note that most of these can be much more aggressive than Gunscrubber. They work great, just keep them away from plastic, pain, or wood. I have noted that Brake cleaners may contain:

Methanol
Acetone
Methyl Ethyl Ketone
Methyl Chloride
Light Petroleum distillates
Toluene
Perchloroethylene
Xylene

etc. etc.

EDIT: Plastic safe electrical contact cleaners are generally similar, but not really any cheaper.
 
My hobby is fixing up old milsurps which often have neglected bores. Not cleaning them is not an option in this case.

I have used a variant of Ed's Red, Butch's Boreshine, Acetone, Mineral Spirits, CLP, JB Bore Paste (red and gray), Blue Wonder gel, Kroil penetrating oil, bore spray scrubbers to wash crud loosened by brushing, M7 Pro foam, Hoppes 9 (original and synthetic) and specific lead or copper removal stuff. I even have used a homemade electolysis system to clean some bores. They all work more or less depending on how much elbow grease you want to use and how much time you want to spend.

Similarly, Lewis Lead Removal tool, steel helical brushes, nylon bore brushes, bronze bore brushes have all been employed along with the old standby Choreboy bronze wool for severe leading. Even, gasp, boresnakes have been used, the original, as well as the Otis version.

Conclusion, you need to individualize your cleaning regimen to what you need it for. Sewer pipe milsurp barrels get the multi-layered approach as you often have to peel the fouling out like an onion--case in point was a 1916 No. 1, Mk 3* with its original barrel. I had to take out layers of crud to find that underneath all of that was decent rifling for a 100 year old barrel. I ended up using almost everything on it and it took about 3 days off and on counting solvent soaking time to get most of it. I am sure that my cleaning method on this rifle would give a collector the vapors but it worked to reveal a VG bore with slight pitting in the grooves when I was finished.

Another was a dull spider infested bore in a GEW 98 loose barrel purchased from a gunsmith which only took Butch's Bore Shine and a few patches to reveal a bright sparkly barrel and chamber. I have only used nylon bore brushes and soft patches to keep it that way.

My pistols all have gleaming bores since that was the way I bought them in the first place as well as other new rifles etc. It is pretty easy to keep those clean with even CLP unless you are shooting really cruddy ammo.

The task determines the cleaning tools and chemicals employed rather than trying use one all purpose wonder cleaner. Some are simply better at one task than another. None are good at everything--not even electrolysis.

BTW, want your rifle barrel to last indefinitely, cast bullets work with reduced velocities do that. Not sure yet about using powder coated or Hi-Tek coating yet for rifle bullets--the jury is still out on that one.
 
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