To red dot or not to red dot...

[JTHunter]

With one exception, none of my handguns have any "enhancements" on them. That exception is a green laser on a .22 Magnum pistol.
With two exceptions, ALL of my rifles are scoped. I need the scopes as I wear glasses due to bad "near-sightedness".

 

[Smokin Gator]

Here's what convinced me to give optics a try. A shooter I know who is an LEO and master level USPSA shooter primarily shooting Single Stack and Limited, never shot Open. He started shooting some Carry Optics and now says he wishes he had started shooting with a slide mounted optic sooner because it has also improved his iron sight shooting.

He is a shooter who shoots one division for part of the year and then will switch to another rather then just staying with one division for years.
I also for a change of pace enjoy shooting different guns/divisions. After shooting mostly optics for nearly a year I can tell I'm seeing the targets and iron sights differently now. More target focus.

 

[Howland937]

Why red dots are generally in a different class

I wondered how long it would take before that was actually mentioned. If there's no real advantage, optics and irons would be shot in the same classes.

Tech scares people. It's sometimes expensive and requires more learning, which is an investment some people aren't willing to make.

20 years ago, my dad told me "If I needed all those electronics on my boat to catch fish I'd quit" Don't remember which graphs (at least 2) he's using now, but pretty sure it cost as much as a couple decent rod and reel combos.

 

[benEzra]

As you get in your 40s and early 50s, it gets progressively harder to use iron sights effectively in dim light. I found that out the hard way shooting a recent low-light match with my EDC…did passably well with irons on the “daylight” stage, not so fine on the “night” stage past 10-15 yards. Switched to a compact Holosun, and after some practice I am faster picking up the dot than I was picking up irons even in bright light.

One tip, it is much faster to pick up the dot with the gun closer to your eyes, rather than picking up the sights at full extension. Pressing the gun all the way out and then looking for the dot will often leave you hunting for it, at least with a compact CCW-style optic.

 

[jmr40]

I'm not LE, but have been playing around with the Holosun dot sights on a few pistols for the last few months. IMO they will be standard issue on the guns in LE holsters in another decade. I like mine for HD or open carry, which I almost never do unless I'm out in the woods. At this point I don't like the extra bulk and weight on a concealed carry gun but I may change my mind.

I have a Smith M&P with the slide cut for a sight as well as a Sig M18. I tried the sight on both. It worked well for me on the Smith, but I had trouble picking up the dot when mounted on the Sig. I'm sure part of that is familiarity with the pistol. If I were using the Sig exclusively, I'm sure I'd have adapted.

I bought a Glock with the cut and a 2nd Holosun for it. This works great for me, better than the Smith and much better than the Sig. I have no problem picking up the dot quickly. I have no problem transitioning between Sig, Glock or Smith with iron sights, but for whatever reason it matters to me with the dot.

 

[JERRY]

I was forced into the RDS thing several years ago when my agency adopted them (along with stepping back from .40 to 9mm).

They can be nice but have a big training curve, particularly in acquiring the dot on the draw, even if you’re damn proficient at practical handgun fighting.

Sounds like you are in an agency where you have to buy your own gear. In your shoes I probably would stick with irons.

If you can’t help yourself and just have to have one, automatic brightness adjustment is a must for what we do in various lighting conditions. Don’t dick around with lower cost options and just go Trijicon RMR.

Then enjoy thousands of draws and dry fire to find that damn dot quickly.

No, they provide everything except back up guns and handgun optics.

 

[scaatylobo]

I'm fairly old school on things; no I don't carry a model 10 with a drop pouch. However I am one of the few people that carry a backup gun in uniform in my area. I'm a firm believer in 129 woven kevlar over hybrid polymer blends. I still have patrol boots instead of sneakers.... And I have concealable body armor instead of the over the shirt uniform vest carrier.

However today at range qualifications blah blah blah there was extra time so I took a look at the red dot on one of the swat guy's pistol. I took a few shots. I took a few more.... I'm sold.

I was never resistant to the idea I just didn't think it made much difference. And well it doesn't make much difference but it does make some difference, particularly at distance. I'm now saving up my pennies for a red dot for my duty and gun.

Has anyone else been converted recently? Did you change because it was the "in thing" to do, or because it actually helped you, or you just thought you'd give it a try and you liked it better?

Retired almost 17 years [ yea,strange to even pen that ].

I have shot and handled many RMR/red dots and yes they are amazing.

But I see no advantage at true danger close S/D shootings.

At that range I will not be using the sights as I see no reason to waste the time to bring the gun up to eye level.

YES,YES, understood that if the shot requires REAL ACCURACY then by all means aim !.

And I see the RMR versions as amazing at 50 ' as I have them on my range gun for club shooting.

But at real combat distance for purely S/D reasons [ like 3 yards if your lucky ] the natural point shooting I train with works VERY well.

 

[Smokin Gator]

I also don't envision myself putting an optic on on my carry gun at this point. While many self defense incidents may be at that 3 yard distance obviously some will be at greater distance. I'm shooting more with an optic currently but it has helped my iron sight shooting too. I've competed with iron sights for over 20 years.

I will have catract surgery probably in the next year or two and I have seen good reports from others about their vision afterwards. My vision changed dramatically in the last year. If I couldn't see the irons I'd go with an optic while realizing at close range I will probably just be indexing the gun on the target as I do now.

 

[docwharden1881]

Personally I don't care for optics. I know some who swear by them. I typically carry/shoot old style revolvers. My rule of thumb for what it is worth:
No optics on revolver. Not even a scope
Rifles, shotguns may be a different story. I like Skinner sites (ghost/peep) or open buckhorn on my rifle or shotgun. it is the op's guns and his/her decision. I can only give my personal opinion.

 

[JERRY]

Retired almost 17 years [ yea,strange to even pen that ].

I have shot and handled many RMR/red dots and yes they are amazing.

But I see no advantage at true danger close S/D shootings.

At that range I will not be using the sights as I see no reason to waste the time to bring the gun up to eye level.

YES,YES, understood that if the shot requires REAL ACCURACY then by all means aim !.

And I see the RMR versions as amazing at 50 ' as I have them on my range gun for club shooting.

But at real combat distance for purely S/D reasons [ like 3 yards if your lucky ] the natural point shooting I train with works VERY well.

I agree. That's why I said it didn't make a difference but made "some" difference. For me the 25 yard barricade shooting it made a difference. 15 yards and in no difference.

 

[mm93]

When I shot bullseye matches everyone was beginning to convert to Aimpoints or other brands of red dot scopes. No magnification, but they certainly made accurate shooting much easier. I converted both of my pistols to a red dot, and my scores changed for the better.
As for a red dot on my carry guns, no thanks. I just don't want the extra height sticking up above my slides so I'll stay with iron sights for carry guns.

 

[TonyAngel]

Going with a red dot is a no brainer. It's definitely a better way of acquiring a target. You cannot just put a red dot on your firearm and expect to see an instant difference or advantage. Put a red dot on your firearm and shoot as much as it takes to change what you've been doing for however long you've been shooting. For me, that's over 45 years. Yes, there's a learning curve, but once you have it, it's done.

 

[mac66]

Yes, finding the red dot from the draw will be the learning curve.

This, I have a 22 pistol with a RDS to try out using a RDS. I don't feel confident enough (i.e struggle) finding the dot upon drawing and shooting. It helped putting high sights on that pistol so you can line up on the regular sights and then co-witness the dot but I don't feel comfortable putting them on my carry gun.

 

[FL-NC]

I don't care for them on handguns. Given how I employ handguns I don't need the extra bulk or to spend the extra $, not to mention the need to re-train on the new piece of gear. Another concern is/was the reliability of these things, which I am told is not an issue with many of the newer models. Regardless, the issues of bulk, $, and re-training are still present, so I will continue to opt out. To each his own.

 

[trackskippy]

This, I have a 22 pistol with a RDS to try out using a RDS. I don't feel confident enough (i.e struggle) finding the dot upon drawing and shooting. It helped putting high sights on that pistol so you can line up on the regular sights and then co-witness the dot but I don't feel comfortable putting them on my carry gun.

One thing you need to adjust with your draw is to bring the gun straight up from the holster before you push out, instead of pushing right out from the holster.

With your focus on the target, when you bring the gun straight up, your eye sees/picks up the dot quicker and holds it on the way to the target as you push out.

If you push right out from the holster, it tends to be a lot harder to find/see the dot once you get there, especially if your presentation isn't "perfect". Then you lose focus on the target and start looking for the dot.

Same goes when shooting from a ready position. The quicker the gun comes "up" as it goes out, the quicker and easier it is to see the dot.

S

 

[shafter]

Red dot sights are the "cheat code" and people shooter further, faster, and more accurately.

When criminals catch on they're going to to up a few notches in their lethality.

 

[trackskippy]

As long as they stay fascinated with Glock switches and 33 round mags, we'll be OK. Well, as long as you're the target anyway, everyone near you, you're SOL.

 

[.38 Special]

I think they have several uses.

One was mentioned by @Lo-Profile right out of the gate: at longer ranges, dots can be more accurate, especially on guns with relatively short sight radii.

Another, as noted by several members, is aging eyes. Dots can be great for folks who are beginning to have trouble seeing irons.

A third is that dots tend to be better in nearly every way for inexperienced shooters. "Iron sights stratify marksmen", and true mastery can take a very long time. The learning curve with dots is significantly flatter, and even a complete novice can get up to a basic level of competence relatively quickly. (I still maintain that "Dots are more accurate" is, as a general statement, incorrect. The absolute record in Bullseye competition - where dots and irons compete on the same field - is still held by irons.)

I personally am using a dot on a carry gun, primarily for reason #1: I worry about rifle-equipped "mass shooters" who might require precision long-range fire - from a small, concealed handgun. Compared with big plastic "irons", with a 3" sight radius, a dot makes such things much more realistic. Of course, the odds of ever actually needing to use a gun in that capacity are microscopic, and I certainly would never suggest that everyone who carries needs to worry about the same things I do. The dot gives me peace of mind, though, and so is worth the money, to me.

​

 

[psyopspec]

I first put an RMR on a Glock nearly 10 years ago. Of the four guns I carry regularly, the ones I carry most days have Holosuns on them (Beretta 92x Centurion with an EPS Carry and a Glock 43x with a Holosun 407k).

Some days I carry a smaller gun without a red dot, either a Beretta 80x Cheetah or a Ruger LCP.

I don't consider an RDS critical for CCW, but it lends more capability for me for accuracy at distance, and by tightening split times between shots at intermediate and longer distances.

 

[Space Ghost]

I have a red dot on 1 handgun, and it's nice, of course I'm new to the pistol dot thing, and training is an issue.
I'm more of a red dot on rifles guy... but on those rifles... especially defensive weapons... I'm 100% sold.
Used them on my last couple deployments, and the shear speed of target acquisition is unmatched. Even for me, and I was in my 40s then, and cross eye dominant.
On the last deployment... twice on the same day... my red dot (well, EOTech) allowed me to get off the first accurate shot... making ME the one going it home.
So far, I haven't seen anything close to the same speed gains on my handgun, (so I just have the one red dot) but they are kinda nice.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I caution people against automatic adjustments for law enforcement particularly because of the possibility of shooting from a dark place into a light one and vice versa. The dot won't adjust properly. It seems perfect until you try shooting from a light room into a dark one.

When I got my AR I had exactly that issue with the first red dot I bought for it, which was a Holosun... I bought the one that was on the model I had used at the gun store range where it seemed fine. I bought the AR for home defense, it was the summer of the riots and in the unlikely event they came to my neighborhood and tried to break into my home, my revolver was not gonna cut it. I spent a lot of time analyzing my house layout vis-à-vis likely points of attempted entry and figuring out how to give myself the best advantage. Blabla, obviously it's better for BGs to be lit up (especially if the light is shining into their eyes) while the defender is in a darker area... when I tried practicing maneuvers from my dimly lit designated defensive position shooting into the lit-up back patio, no red dot. I moved into another dim area right next to a light switch still aiming out the back, no joy, flipped the light switch without moving, voilà, red dot. A friend told me I should get an aimpoint instead. I about had a heart attack when I saw the price but after a few days just did it. Guess what, works perfectly. Sometimes cheap is cheap for a reason.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Somewhat related to the topic of red dots on carry guns, just today I got an email from Speer with a video featuring an instructor who likes to use a handgun with no sights at all to improve accuracy, I could see exactly what he meant, he described it by saying with the whole top of the gun smooth you actually have a "sighting plane" you can use just fine. You can see the video at

Speer Stories

Speer Ammo

www.speer.com

It's a little over 3 minutes.

 

[Jntrees]

Once you get proficient with a dot, it's hard to go back to irons. All my handguns purchases going forward will have the cut-out for a dot sight. I run mainly Holosun for their features and price point.

 

[Buzznrose]

I can still do well with iron sights but my groups really get larger when I’m not shooting a red dot.

I use 2-3 MOA dots.

I saw this math for an MOA of an iron sight on the Internet. Is it close?

“Assuming the front sight is the standard 1/8" wide, at 24" from your eye it would represent @ 18.75 MOA”