Top shot show on History

[gathert]

They are likely to only get roughly half that in reality, but it was still a manly thing of him to miss on purpose if thats what he truly did. I know people that have sacrificed on the same level, and I would gladly have those people around me all the time.

 

[Tim the student]

I'm not convinced that George threw it. I might be convinced if he seemed like a somewhat decent guy previously - but he didn't - one bit.

If he did, more power to him for doing it, but I'd still rather watch a shooting show, instead of a somewhat fixed "contest".

 

[ForumSurfer]

I think George threw the pistol shot, but I think he really missed the shot with the Sharps...Winning was everything to George, he just didn't think he would miss the rifle shot.

I think his saying that he threw the shot at the $100K was just a spin to cover his screw up with the Sharps

I feel the same...the pistol was an intentional throw (and honorable given the circumstances) and the Sharps shot was a legitimate miss (or failboat in George speak).

I feel he risked the chance of losing 100K for his friend, but he didn't exactly give it to Chris. He gave Chris a chance to stay in the competition and Chris took the opportunity to out-shoot George. You could really tell that it bothered Chris to be given a chance like that.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I understand how Chris feels, it somehow makes the victory less when you know that you should have been gone...like Chris and JJ last season

If he'd wanted to give him a real chance...he should have just chosen a real match where they each had a chance to sink or swim

 

[Nom de Forum]

George: Noble man or Narcissist?

Here are my possible explanations of George’s Performance:

1. George chooses the revolver and large tile target at short range because he knows that even if he misses with the Sharps when Chis chooses the target and range at worst it will be a tie and but since he believes Chris is choking he could win by Chris missing. This eliminates the appearance that George is just kicking a down man and saves George’s ego. Anyone who shoots knows that under pressure it is possible to miss such a large target at such close range. George gets cocky and fires a near miss using a Ruger with a reputation for a less than smooth double-action. When George fires the Sharps he fires prematurely because of the very light set trigger and misses.

2. George needs a friend like Chris more than he needs the money. He misses deliberately, and thereby looks like at noble hero and avoids being the guy who beat up the old man with brain damage. He also avoids the possibly of coming in second to another old man.

3. George really loves his friend Chris and wants his kids to have the money. (I wonder what THR posters who are devotees of Ayn Rand think of George’s possible altruism)

George should have never given the slightest indication that he deliberately missed. Doing so is false nobility and nothing more that ego preservation. It is a disservice to Chris and all of us watching the show. None of us will ever know who really was the Top Shot unless we want to believe part of winning the competition includes making your competitors feel sorry enough for you so that they forfeit. What is troubling is Chris will always have doubt that he really deserves to be the Top Shot and that doubt may change over time to bitterness and an unwanted feeling of having an obligation that he never had a chance to refuse. If George really wanted to help his friend he could have won the competition and donated some of the winnings to a trust for Chris’s kids.

 

[KodiakBeer]

(I wonder what THR posters who are devotees of Ayn Rand think of George’s possible altruism)

We are happy with personal altruism. Less happy with government coerced altruism.

 

[Justin]

3. George really loves his friend Chris and wants his kids to have the money. (I wonder what THR posters who are devotees of Ayn Rand think of George’s possible altruism)

The philosophy of Objectivism has no issue whatsoever with voluntary acts of altruism.

Anyone who's actually spent some time reading up on it would know this.



As for the topic at hand, I was really blown away by George's actions in the finale. Totally unexpected.

 

[DukeNukem]

George lost on purpose to give Chris a chance at winning it, IMO. Surprised me completely. It demonstrated to me that George wasn't exactly who I thought he was and that I should keep in mind that people are almost always more complicated and have more depth than how they are presented on these sorts of TV shows. But I also think his ego wouldn't let him pass up hinting that it was intentional.

 

[sonick808]

i don't like george for the way he treats people, and for his excessive pride. But tonight just tears it with his false nobility as he is the FIRST! to mention regarding the sharps rifle: "did I throw that last shot ? you decide" fade to black. Are you kidding me. I guess he just needs to grow up.

 

[HOOfan_1]

I thought in this competition, the shots had to be exactly replicated. George shot double action, Chris shot single action.

Whatever George did, and whatever his motivations were, he still needs to work on his attitude and tone down his frat boy rage.

 

[DAP90]

What is troubling is Chris will always have doubt that he really deserves to be the Top Shot and that doubt may change over time to bitterness and an unwanted feeling of having an obligation that he never had a chance to refuse.

Chris still had to earn it the next day against Gunny. I don't believe Gunny threw the competition. I believe Chris beat him. It probably could have gone either way on any given day.

We may never know who was the best shot but given the setup of the whole competition that was true anyway. The best shot could be eliminated in a blowgun challenge after being voted in for popularity reasons - not saying that was the case.

What is true is the remaining shooters were all great shots.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Some things thing I noted on the follow-up show:

• A contestant who was eliminated early on mentioned they had no idea what time it was. They got a phone call 15 minutes before the contest each day.
• They were not allowed outside contact with loved ones.
• I'm not sure, but I didn't see a TV in the house and someone mentioned "no contact with the outside world."

Those things would stress a person. Now I can see why alliances would be made, it would only be natural to seek to make friends and stick with them if possible. If they really had no idea what time it was other than the position of the sun, that would start to wear on you after a few days.

I've met many narcissistic people in my life and from what I saw on TV, George didn't fit the role of a narcissist. Confident to the point of being annoyingly cocky while being very outspoken, but not a narcissist. If he is a narcissist because he was confident and a bit cocky, then I guess I am too with some things...albeit less outspoken about it.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think George picked an easy shot and then threw it to keep Chris in action as long as possible.
Then it backfired on him.
I think they were furnishing the Sharps with cheap ammo and any hit with it was a luck shot.

I cannot imagine Zins taking a dive at any shooting match. He just could not put the 10/22 on target.


There has been a strange disconnect. We get a lot of petty bickering and backbiting but they did not conduct the shooting competition rationally. When you get to pick somebody to risk elimination, you don't go "performance oriented." Or actually you do but the other way around. You should pick the BEST shooters to duke it out and cut down on your competition. If you want to win.

 

[kingcheese]

george definately threw it, if he didnt he would have been very visably mad at missing the target with the sharps

 

[kingcheese]

if you are selected do they pat ro sgip you to the place it is all filmed?

 

[Tennessee Ned]

Congrats to Chris!

George ain't as bad as we thought. He acts like an a-hole only because he's afraid of crying on television.

Overall I thought it was an excellent finale.

Can't wait for next season. Wouldn't mind seeing the prize money increase a little and I'm curious about the payout for the other contestants as well.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Kodiakbeer and Justin

I have read quite a bit of Rand over the last 30 years and I disagree with you. Rand made it very clear she thought altruism in any form was wrong because it ultimately demeaned the recipient. She demonstrated this with Charles Keating in the Fountainhead. Keating accepted Roark’s help not realizing that it was not altruism but Roark acting in his own self-interest to get his design built. Remember Roark demanded anonymity not to be noble but because knowledge of his participation would result in his design never being built. Roark was not doing Keating a favor so much is allowing Keating to benefit indirectly from Roark pursuing his own self-interest.

I believe Rand would think George forced Chris into a situation that no matter what its outcome is demeaning. Chris was denied his chance to succeed on his own merit. George usurped Chris’s autonomy. All the competitors entered the competition with the expectation to win only by personal performance.

Personally I would never want to win a competition the way Chris did. After Jamie was eliminated I wanted Chris to win. I am glad he has the money for his family. I really do not know what to think about George. I do know that my opinion of George would be much higher if he said nothing indicating he helped Chris and even higher if he had won the competition and then acknowledged the help of his friend Chris by offering to share some of the purse. I hope after a few more seasons they have a season of all the Top Shots competing so Chris has a chance to win completely on merit.

 

[Justin]

She directly addressed the issue of sacrificial altruism in the book that collected her essays titled The Virtue of Selfishness.

In that book, it's quite clearly stated that if you voluntarily wish to engage in an act of altruism, that is your choice to make. There's an entire essay devoted to the subject.

IIRC, the point is made that there's really no such thing as pure or true altruism, as one could pretty easily view the warm fuzzy feeling derived from such an act as a form of payment.

 

[Ledgehammer]

George was more than cocky. He was down right mean and disrespectful to people. By him announcing that he "missed on purpose" takes away any chance he had at salvaging a decent reputation. If you help a friend you don't talk about it like it was charity. That's bitterness and disrespectful to chris. You should give your friend your best game in a competition.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Justin

My point is that this was a competition. The participants had a de facto agreement to compete. George apparently violated that agreement and did so in a way that not only usurps Chris's expectation to have the opportunity to win on merit, but also is self-serving. I do not think what happened is what Rand had in mind when she wrote of sacrificial altruism in the The Virtue of Selfishness. If George had given Chris the chance to consent and he agreed to alter the agreement then it would be altruism. What George did can be argued as being like a coerced business agreement were he receives the payment of a “warm fuzzy feeling” while forcing Chis to make a of payment of gratitude and loss of personal accomplishment. Again I do not think this is what Rand had in mind regarding altruism.

 

[Justin]

You said this:

(I wonder what THR posters who are devotees of Ayn Rand think of George’s possible altruism)

Which is what I was responding to. Even as someone who is not a self-described Objectivist, I find your little dig at Rand and her philosophy quite odd for a discussion about a game show.

That said, as someone who's read plenty of Rand and has a decent grasp of the underpinnings of the philosophy, I pointed out that Objectivism would have no problem with George's presumed act of altruism.

Nowhere do I see that Chris was coerced in any way by George, and I'm fairly certain that receiving imperfect information about a situation, or having to react to the unexpected decisions of others would hardly rise to being an affront to Objectivism, a philosophy that I highly doubt either man adheres to any way.

What George did can be argued as being like a coerced business agreement were he receives the payment of a “warm fuzzy feeling” while forcing Chis to make a of payment of gratitude and loss of personal accomplishment.

You're going to a phenomenal amount of effort to pole vault over mouse turds.

 

[Zundfolge]

Nom, Rand's only point about altruism is that; "Forced altruism is no virtue." Arguing that her views on altruism were equivalent to "every man for himself" is the classic anti-Randian straw man and we should expect better here.

Also, I think such over-analysis of a freakin' reality TV show is a sign that maybe we have too much time on our hands.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've thought about this overnight. Something just struck me odd about Chris during the behind the scenes followup segment.

It occurs to me that Chris has disarmed us with his country/southern demeanor...it came to light when he talked about how he vetted potential team members, how he viewed the selection process and how George viewed him. I'm now seeing Chris as a master manipulator and George as his stalking horse. This isn't to take anything away from Chris as a shooter...he definitely beat Gunny in the Final Challenge.

I think what happened to Gunny is the same thing that happened to Chris last season when he went against Ian. The pressure of being behind threw all technique out the window in the attempt to catch up. Remember that Gunny's ability to handle pressure is really a game of self competition...and letting the final score speak for itself...not in the head to head arena

 

[Dr.Rob]

Seriously? Ayn Rand? Thread drift much?

That's like watching Jersey Shore to experience existentialism. Let's keep it on topic eh?

 

[Nom de Forum]

Whoa Justin!

Where is the dig at Rand?

“I wonder what THR posters who are devotees of Ayn Rand think of George’s possible altruism” is a neutral enquiry. What George did was unethical. You never throw competition for any reason.

How unfortunate no other THR posters who read Rand have commented. Perhaps if they did you may find that the is some discussion and disagreement within the Objectivist community over interpretation of her writings. Unfortunately Rand is not available to clarify them. I completely agree with Rand regarding this situation as I interpret her philosophy. I am quite surprised that more readers of Rand have not agreed with me. The only reason I ever mentioned Rand to begin with is because of the recent release of Atlas Shrugged Part 1 being a current topic of conversation in our society. Analyzing George’s actions from the perspective of Rand is currently relevant.

“You’re going to a phenomenal amount of effort to pole vault over mouse turds”

Disagree with me using logic or ignore me, don’t make a hypocritical and personal attack insinuating I am being petty. There are 600 plus comments on this topic of which several are yours. That is a very large pile of “mouse turds”. Assuming I am only making a “dig” at Rand is unfair. George’s motivations were a legitimate topic raised by other THR posters. So much for trying to delve deeply into the psychological and philosophical implications of what so many of my fellow THR posters have devoted so much time too. Unless someone else addresses my comments, you will not hear anything more on this topic from me.