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Training Reqirements for CCW... Good or Bad?

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sssteinkamp,

The example you give that you thinks supports required training makes no sense to me.

You say there was one person who should not have passed, but she was allowed to pass anyway by retaking part of the test. It sounds like this was the woman who said she would blow away someone for messing with her car. Do I understand that correctly?

If so, then what was the point of the training? I think your example is a reason why we shouldn't support training. Obviously the passing grade is subjective, and given at the whim of the instructor.
 
Hawkmoon - all you have to do to convince me is to honestly say that you carry a firearm, concealed or openly, anyplace in the USA without any permit or 'permission' from the government.

After all, TRUE believers in the 2nd Amendment don't bother with permits.

I can't remember when I last ran into a 2nd Amendment proponent.
 
Hawkmoon? You have to understand the way the people here define the second ammendment. Every one here has the right to keep and bear arms, but many of them think the "other guy" should be regulated and restricted.

WT? You have now run into a true second ammendment supporter. I think EVERYONE should have a gun, and carry it in any manner he wishes if they are not presently in prison or confined in a mental hospital. Not only that, I do not care if it is a machine gun or a ten inch shotgun.

Do I do it? No, I have no interest in going to prison. The 27 words of the second ammendment are as plain as day to me.

While we are on the subject of rights, may I see your journalistic license, and your permit for your "fully automatic keyboard"?
 
If you're gonna ask the state for permission in the first place, you shouldn't mind some nanny regulation on competence.
Well, if I lived in CA, I don't guess I'd bother asking either. :neener:

BTW, good luck in prison if you ever have to use it. Yea, I know, better to be judged by 12...
 
Makes Good Sense

Skill at arms is a degredable skill. That is, our muscle memory and our habits can get sloppy if we don't keep them sharp. For example, my kids go through the Basic Rules of Gun Safety every single time we go to the range, whether they they feel they already know them or not.

I believe a training set associated with CCW is a wise and prudent thing. Who the heck could ever say we get "too much" training? I for one am in favor of keeping our skills sharpened.
 
This discussion is drifting from "should training be a requirement to exericise the 2nd Amendment?" to "Is training a good idea?".

No one is disputing training is good, the point of the discussion is whether or not it should be required.
 
Hi All-
"...Voluntary training? Sure ... a good thing without doubt. Mandatory training? Not in accordance with the Constitution, and therefore a bad thing..."

I agree with the sentiment above 100%.

The whole idea of "Old West-style gunfights in the streets" and irate customers "shooting the 7-11 cashier over incorrect change" has been thoroughly discredited by data in all states. Boastful morons trash-talking about busting a cap in someone's @ss probably have plenty of criminal offenses and won't be bothering to obtain a CCW anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much about their effect on the process.

The actual percentage of the population that is interested in legally carrying a firearm is probably in the single digits on a nationwide basis. The remaining majority can just "go along for the free ride" since criminals wouldn't know which people are armed.

~ Blue Jays ~
 
I don't know that mandatory training infringes on our rights or not. I think training is a very good thing. I also think there are a lot of knuckleheads out there that don't train, don't know the law, and they are likely more dangerous to me than the bad guys.

Check out Doug.38PR's posts on TFL in this thread. Apparently as a person who recently passed his CHL qualifications and has his CHL in Texas, he apparently believed that if he had to disarcharge his gun in a lethal force situation that he was not responsible for any collateral damage, such as shooting non-combatants because he is acting in the 'greater good' for society to try to shoot a bad guy.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172048&highlight=greater+good

If folks are not going to be too worried about collateral damage, then I hope it is because they are superhuman marksmen that never miss and only shoot ammo that will not overpenetrate the 'intended' target.
 
Check out Doug.38PR's posts on TFL in this thread. Apparently as a person who recently passed his CHL qualifications and has his CHL in Texas, he apparently believed that if he had to disarcharge his gun in a lethal force situation that he was not responsible for any collateral damage, such as shooting non-combatants because he is acting in the 'greater good' for society to try to shoot a bad guy.

This case points out the futility (in some cases) of training. Here is a person who passed his training requirements, yet still doesn't know the law.

If someone can sit through their training class and still not understand the law, then not only does the class infringe on his rights to bear arms, but is also a colossal waste of time.

With the freedom to bear arms also comes a huge responsibility. Responsibility is not something that can necessarily be taught in a class room. Stupid people will do stupid things. Democracy is messy.
 
A slightly different spin:


Yes, training is good.

No, training cannot rightfully be a precondition of excercising a fundamental right.

Completely unrelated: Militia training can rightfully be made mandatory.


Theoretically, lawfully constituted powers can periodically summon all able bodied citizens to the town square with their arms for inspection and drill, in which case I will show up bearing the least weighty of my many armaments. ;)
 
Hawkmoon - all you have to do to convince me is to honestly say that you carry a firearm, concealed or openly, anyplace in the USA without any permit or 'permission' from the government.
No, I don't have to say that.

I live by the restrictions imposed on me by my state of residence, not because I believe those restrictions are reasonable or legal, but for the pragmatic reason that I am not independently wealthy and I simply cannot afford the expense, in time or money, to become a test case.

The fact that I am a 2nd Amendment coward does not mean that the 2nd Amendment doesn't mean what it says. It simply means that I am a coward. This may strike you as odd, but I served in Vietnam out of the same cowardice. I wanted to file as a Conscientious Objector, but my application didn't go through because my own minister wouldn't support it. I was faced with a choice of jail time, going to Canada with the knowledge that I would never, ever again be able to (legally, anyway) visit my family or friends, or entering the Army. I wasn't strong enough to accept either of the first two choices so I accepted the third. At that time I considered it to be an act of cowardice, and I continue to do so.

Simple enough?
 
I apologise for all the toes I step on,,,, but,,,,, IF you allow me to TAX,,,, or TEST,,, or REGULATE in ANY manner, it equals a BAN......

If you do not agree, consider this,,,ANYONE may have a permit,, IF they apply for it, and pay the fee for it, and certify the training. Red, and Yellow, black, and white, all are equal,,, so,, sherriff Billy Joe Bob allows anyone a permit that can name ALL of the signers of the declaration of independence. (competency requirement)
They have to purchase a permit for 200$.
They have to have training, Sherriff Billy Joe Bob says they are not competent unless they can hit a four inch bullseye at two hundred yards.

I have three daughters, three nieces, and one nephew, none of them could pass that test, and while we are at it, I am proud of the fact that I can say there are 55 signers of the declaration of independence,,,not a chance of naming ten of them.

The power to tax, or regulate is the power to BAN.
 
TxCajun --

In Re your post #48, I assume you are taking issue with my terming the "well regulated militia" clause a preamble? I said it's a preamble to the 2nd Amendment, not that it's a preamble to the entire Constiution. Have you read the DOJ report on the topic? Here's where that point is dicussed. Note that they often use the term "preface" or "prefatory" rather than "preamble," but it amounts to the same thing -- it's explanatory window dressing that does not affect the operative clause of the Amendment.

DOJ Report said:
C. "A Well Regulated Militia, being Necessary to the Security of a Free State"

A feature of the Second Amendment that distinguishes it from the other rights that the Bill of Rights secures is its prefatory subordinate clause, declaring: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, . . . ." Advocates of the collective-right and quasi-collective-right interpretations rely on this declaration, particularly its reference to a well-regulated militia. On their interpretation, the "people" to which the Second Amendment refers is only the "people" in a collective, organized capacity as the state governments, or a small subset of the "people" actively organized by those governments into military bodies. "People" becomes interchangeable with the "State" or its "organized militia."

This argument misunderstands the proper role of such prefatory declarations in interpreting the operative language of a provision. A preface can illuminate operative language but is ultimately subordinate to it and cannot restrict it.

Wholly apart from this interpretive principle, this argument also rests on an incomplete understanding of the preface's language. Although the Amendment's prefatory clause, standing alone, might suggest a collective or possibly quasi-collective right to a modern reader, when its words are read as they were understood at the Founding, the preface is fully consistent with the individual right that the Amendment's operative language sets out. The "Militia" as understood at the Founding was not a select group such as the National Guard of today. It consisted of all able-bodied male citizens. The Second Amendment's preface identifies as a justification for the individual right that a necessary condition for an effective citizen militia, and for the "free State" that it helps to secure, is a citizenry that is privately armed and able to use its private arms.

1. The Limits of Prefatory Language.

In the eighteenth century, the proper approach to interpreting a substantive or "operative" legal provision to which a lawmaker had joined a declaration (whether a "Whereas" clause or analogous language) was (1) to seek to interpret the operative provision on its own, and (2) then to look to the declaration only to clarify any ambiguity remaining in the operative provision. (69) It was desirable, if consistent with the operative text, to interpret the operative provision so that it generally fulfilled the justification that the preface declared, but a narrow declaration provided no warrant for restricting the operative text, and the preface could not itself create an ambiguity. This rule applied equally to declarations located in any part of a law, not simply at the beginning of it, and to both statutes and constitutions. We therefore consider this rule applicable to the Second Amendment.

English Parliaments of the 1700's and late 1600's regularly included prefaces throughout statutes - not only at the beginning (constituting the first section) but also in particular sections. (70) The same rule of interpretation applied to both uses of prefaces. As an example of the latter, a section of a bankruptcy statute recited the problem of persons who "convey their goods to other men upon good consideration" before becoming bankrupt, yet continue to act as owners of the goods; the immediately following clause of the statute provided that if a bankrupt debtor possessed "any goods or chattels" with "the consent and permission of the true owner," was their reputed owner, and disposed of them as an owner, such property should repay the debtor's debts rather than return to the true owner. The difficulty arose when the bankrupt debtor possessed property that never had been his, such as property in trust. A leading case in 1716 read the enacting language to apply even in such cases and rejected the argument "that the preamble shall restrain the operation of the enacting clause; and that, because the preamble is too narrow or defective, therefore the enacting clause, which has general words, shall be restrained from its full latitude, and from doing that good which the words would otherwise, and of themselves, import." (71) The King's Bench reiterated the rule in 1723, rejecting in a criminal case an argument based on declaratory language introducing part of a statute: "Now those general words in the enacting part, shall never be restrained by any words introducing that part; for it is no rule in the exposition of statutes to confine the general words of the enacting part to any particular words either introducing it, or to any such words even in the preamble itself." The court acknowledged that "a construction which agrees with the preamble" was desirable, "but not such as may confine the enacting part to it." (72)

Blackstone summed up this understanding in explaining that, although the words of an enacting clause were "generally to be understood in their usual and most known signification," yet if its words, after due analysis, were "still dubious" or "ambiguous, equivocal, or intricate," one might look to the context, which included "the proeme, or preamble, [which] is often called in to help the construction of an act of parliament." (73) Chancellor Kent, a leading early American commentator, likewise reasoned that a preamble, although not technically part of the law, "may, at times, aid in the construction of" a statute or "be resorted to in order to ascertain the inducements to the making" of it, "but when the words of the enacting clause are clear and positive, recourse must not be had to the preamble." (74)

Prefatory language also was common in constitutions, and this rule of construction applied in the same way. Speaking of the preamble of the whole federal Constitution, Joseph Story in his Commentaries reiterated that statutory preambles are "properly resorted to, where doubts or ambiguities arise upon the words of the enacting part; for if they are clear and unambiguous, there seems little room for interpretation," and he could not see "any reason why, in a fundamental law or constitution of government," the same rule should not apply. (75) Similarly, the Supreme Court has held that the Constitution's preamble lacks any operative legal effect and that, even though it states the Constitution's "general purposes," it cannot be used to conjure a "spirit" of the document to confound clear operative language; (76) the Court has, however, also sought some guidance from the preamble when the operative text did not resolve a question. (77)

The same reasoning applied to declaratory phrases in the language of individual constitutional provisions, the closest analogies to the Second Amendment. The 1784 New Hampshire Constitution provided: "In criminal prosecutions, the trial of facts in the vicinity where they happen, is so essential to the security of the life, liberty and estate of the citizen, that no crime or offence ought to be tried in any other county than that in which it is committed." (78) Even though in some cases a trial outside of the county where a crime was committed might bring it closer to the crime scene, or a judge might think a trial in the county where the crime occurred not "essential to" (or even in conflict with) "the security of the life, liberty and estate of the citizen," neither fact would justify disregarding the clear operative language of this constitutional provision. (79) Likewise, the pre-1787 constitutions of Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont declared that freedom of speech in the legislature was "so essential to the rights of the people" that words spoken there could not the basis of "any" suit. (80) One could not use this declaration to avoid the clear immunity conferred by the operative language, even where particular statements made in the legislature - such as an egregious slander unrelated to a pending bill - were not thought "essential to" the people's rights. (81) In addition, Madison's draft of what became the First Amendment's Free Press Clause read: "the freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable." (82) The emphasized declaratory language presumably could not have qualified or limited the freedom clearly conferred, such as by exempting from protection, as hostile to "liberty," publications advocating absolute monarchy.

A discussion at the Constitutional Convention demonstrates the same understanding, including that prefaces in a particular constitutional provision might merely state policy. What would become Article I, Section 8, Clause 16 of the Constitution, empowering Congress to "provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia," had reached its final form. But George Mason proposed "to preface" it with the phrase, "And that the liberties of the people may be better secured against the danger of standing armies in time of peace." He wished "to insert something pointing out and guarding against the danger of" standing armies. Madison spoke in favor, because the preface would "discountenance" a peacetime standing army while "not restrain[ing] Congress from establishing" one. (83) No doubt an organized, armed, and disciplined militia would generally "better secure" liberties against peace-time standing armies (by reducing the need for such armies and the threat from any that were created), and thus the operative grant of power "agree[d] with" the declaratory preface; (84) but the preface did not restrain or confine the power.

We see no reason to except the Second Amendment from this broadly applicable interpretive rule. (85) Thus, the Amendment's declaratory preface could not overcome the unambiguously individual "right of the people to keep and bear Arms" conferred by the operative text - even if the collective-right and quasi-collective-right schools' understanding of the preface's meaning were correct, and even though the preface might help resolve any ambiguities concerning the scope of that individual right remaining after one has analyzed the operative text. At the same time, any interpretation of the right ought, if possible consistent with its text, to further the declared justification in general, as the Court in Miller recognized when it stated that interpretation of the Amendment should keep the "end in view" of assuring the continuation and rendering possible the effectiveness of the militia. (86) As we explain in the remainder of this subpart - considering in turn the meaning of "Militia," what a "well regulated Militia" was, and the ultimate end of "the security of a free State" - the individual-right view does further the ends set forth in the prefatory language, and therefore the preface, properly understood, is fully consistent with the individual-right interpretation of the operative text.
 
Hawk:

By preface, they mean the first part or:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State...

This preface is the reason or justification for what follows:
...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

At least this is how I interpret the constitutional lawyerspeak.

The 2nd Ammendment contains ONLY these 27 words. All of the rhetoric regarding the preface, is the argument over what the founding fathers meant by "a well regulated Militia" and it's necessesity to the security of a free state. I guess they argue about the preface because the second part, the law, if you will, is pretty dang clear.

The antis of course. interpret this to mean something akin to the national guard while others (us) maintain that it refers to the citizenry, or at least, able-bodied males at large.

BTW, I enjoyed and agree with your comments on pragmatism, the 2nd Ammendment and the draft. I had a low number too and chose to enlist in the USAF where my chances of being a statistic were relatively low. Being from the deep south, Canada was just too cold.

OK... back on topic?

Does requiring training for a CCW permit violate the 2nd Ammendment? Is such a requirement a good or bad thing?

Next...
 
Anyone who doesn't understand duty to retreat or how and why not to provoke a confrontation is dangerous. How do you deal with that? South Carolina makes sure the laws are in the hands of CWP applicants and by testing confirms that applicants have read the material. SC also confirms that an applicant has a clue how to shoot and has a basic level of ability.

That requirement has recently been reaffirmed by the State Senate when it was challenged by a new bill. Nationwide license recognition may ultimately turn on SC requirements, with which I don't disagree in principle. What I don't approve of is abuse of regulatory discretion, finding new ways to work around a shall-issue requirement. The notion of removing licensing requirements is more an issue of countering this abuse of discretion in qualifying applicants or discouraging popularity of concealed carry than it is about invalidating the contribution of training.

My training fee was $50...very affordable, I thought. At the end of the day I felt like my instructor was very much under paid. It has been a couple years, but I may yet send him another $50 and a note of appreciation. I knew far more than a little bit about guns and shooting but knew squat about the laws re handguns. Nevertheless I also learned something on the spot about shooting better scores. I am very glad to have had the training.

I do not support SC recognition of out of state licenses without comparable requirements, until or unless SC no longer requires training. SC state requirements would be a mockery, if visitors had fewer requirements than residents. If we must have laws, they should either be taken seriously or repealed.

There is a big difference between one who merely owns a gun and one who is constantly armed and ready to shoot. I would rather not defer to TV and movies to teach people how and when to shoot.

I believe in the 2A in principle but believe it is obsolete in that its assumption that familiarity and competency with firearms was natural to the citizenry no longer applies to modern American society. It's not a lot to ask for someone to demonstrate evidence of basic training, including safety, marksmanship, and knowledge of relevant law. I would indeed make it a privilege in effect but would provide real guards against abuse of regulatory discretion. The law should be very specific about conditions of licensing. Vague grants of regulatory discretion ignore the realities of governmental history.

But unless or until the 2A is amended, "shall not be infringed" means literally that. No gun control, period. I also can read and believe the 14th amendment applies the 2A to the States. I also believe in the principle of the 14th as well as the rule of law in general. The law in actual practice is another matter. Therefore, really dealing with any training issue should require revisiting the whole package of RKBA. I think the higher courts recognize that and prefer to avoid the whole snake pit. Any State laws or courts that allow or fabricate ways of ignoring the 2A are not proper and should be despised. What they are doing is working around the need to revisit the Constitution or being forced to honor it as is, social consequences be damned. They could always honor the Constitution as written and defer to Congress like they did in Raich. If Congress is dysfunctional, that doesn't mean the Courts should pick up the slack.
 
I have some approximate results, thus far, to the questions I posed. Not everyone responded clearly to the questions so I tallied up the others as best I could. These are approximate perentages of answers I could discern to this Question: (I focused on the 2nd part of the question)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does requiring training for a CCW permit violate the 2nd Ammendment? Is such a requirement a good or bad thing?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, it's OK to have some training requirement for a CCW permit... 44%

No, it is not OK to have a training requirement for a CCW permit... 39%

Training is good, should be encouraged, but not required...............19%


Although the third respose was not part of the question, it came up frequently. Had it been a choice, perhaps others would have picked it as well.
 
TxCajun said:
[D]o I really want my half-blind, rarely sober, fumbling idiot neighbor carrying a gun in public without the benefit of some training?

Do you understand what an inalienable right is?

Your idiot neighbor will arm himself if he wants to, regardless of training requirements, concealed-carry permits, criminal-background checks, or even ownership prohibitions. Short of killing him, you simply cannot stop him from doing so.

~G. Fink
 
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