Treadwell's death and body recovery - a live-action account

[carebear]

...and those weren't Tim's "pets". Which is part of his and the other ignoramuses problem.

They apparently can't deal with the idea that life isn't a Disney film, that nature is indeed "red in tooth and claw" and have to anthromorphize animals into some kind of furry little brothers who need our love and protection rather than wild creatures that need to be dealt with with respect and discretion.

 

[Mongo the Mutterer]

wild creatures that need to be dealt with with respect and discretion

Carebear ... what you said. Treating any wild animal as a "pet" is not only unwise and dangerous, it is also disrespectful of the animal and Nature.

It is an arrogance of attitude which deserves to be corrected.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

wild creatures that need to be dealt with with respect and discretion

You got that right. A long time ago when I was a wee babe buck private (well an e-3 anyway) I got to witness two guys (one cpl. and a specialist) think it was would be funny to go up to a beaver we came across and try and pick it up for a photo. This was not a huge beaver, probably about 30-40lbs so most likely a female. Long story short, nearly 200 stitches and an emergency evac later we had a funny story to tell and there was a beaver loose in the wild with a taste for human blood.

 

[Biker]

And a great headline for that story would be:

'Behold The Power Of Beaver!'

Biker

 

[4v50 Gary]

From 1997 we have...

Traditional Muzzle Loading Forum Palaver HideThis was written by Carl/NYC at the Traditional Muzzle Loading Forum.

"God Protects Drunks and Fools", August 27, 1997
Reviewer: A reader

On the surface, Timothy Treadwell's book "Among Grizzlies" is a book about one of my favorite subjects: bears. This is why I read the book from start to finish. But it isn't long after one begins the book before one realizes that just beneath the surface this is actually a book about a man with a death wish and all the talk about bears (which can make for an adequate "bear read", mind you) is really a series of descriptions of this sad individual's numerous attempts to force a horrible death upon himself.

Treadwell begins his book by describing his being shot at by drug dealers and his having taken an overdose of illegal narcotics that only CPR and an Emergency Room could bring him back from. From the beginning to the end of the book he talks about his addiction to and abuse of alcohol. When he reaches the point of the book at which he sets out to live among Alaska's wild Grizzly Bears and describes the many times that he was charged by irate Grizzlies for having come within ridiculously close proximity to these bears in his attempts to kiss them on the nose, etc, it is clear that his interest in bears is simply a continuation of a long progression of suicide attempts disguised as "experimentation". At the end of the book he tells us that of all the bears he came to know during his stays in the Alaskan wilderness, the one he "loved the most" was the one bear that had tried most seriously to kill him.

This book is by no means scientific. In fact, I have never read a book written by a person who had spent so much time in the wilderness only to come away from it with so little understanding of it. At times Treadwell admits to being a very incapable wilderness explorer and he tells his readers of such instances as the first time night fell upon him while he was alone in the wilderness. In that instance his problem was that once it had become dark he realized that he had never so much as unrolled the tent he had brought to live in and so he would be totally unable to set it up in the darkness.

But in another bizarre description of his being totally surrounded by nature's bounty, watching huge Grizzly Bears procuring so many clams that they were fattening for winter as he watched, Treadwell worries that he will starve to death because he had eaten his last Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwich and finished off his last can of Tuna Fish and the plane that was scheduled to bring him more food had not arrived on the anticipated day! Unfortunately, he wasn't kidding.

This would be a harmless, albeit a bit ridiculous, book were it not for the fact that Treadwell adopts a superior, "Holier Than Thou" attitude toward hunters and other wilderness explorers. He talks about legal hunters and poachers as if they were one and the same and he blames licenced sportsmen for the decline of America's Grizzly population. This is untrue. He also blames sight seers in the Alaskan wilderness for driving bears to inadequate habitats and refers to these tourists as "these people", completely ignoring the fact that he is not only one of "these people" but also by far the most intrusive among them.

Bears are good. People are bad. Treadwell is good because Treadwell is a bear. This is Treadwell's strange, immature philosophy.

In his epilogue Treadwell reminds his readers that he never intended his book to have the effect upon others that Hemingway's description of the running of the bulls had.

I wouldn't worry about that, Tim.

I guess it's fairly obvious that as much as I enjoy reading about bears, I had an adverse reaction to the thought of Timothy Treadwell roaming among them and fancying himself one of them. There is a great deal of bear discussion in this book and many of his descriptions of bear behavior and the reaction of bears to Treadwell's behavior are not devoid of value for bear enthusiasts. For that, one might want to read this book. I might even recommend it.

My hope is that when Treadwell finally accomplishes his real goal, the bears he lives among will not acquire a taste for human flesh as a result of his having forced the meal upon them.

 

[Mongo the Mutterer]

Probably won't be the last time a soldier gets hurt on a beaver hunt either...

 

[VacuumJockey]

I'm a bit late for this thread, sorry -- but this very interesting review of the movie has convinced me that it is a must-see. I do find Herzog a fascinating filmmaker.

Anyway, if someone had gotten poor Threadwell into treatment in time both he, his girlfriend, and the bears might still be alive. Yes, he made some stunningly bad choices, but his illness prevented him from thinking straight. And that is sad, even if the circumstances of his passing reads like the Darwin Awards.

 

[Kodi Bear]

Enjoying the replies

Yet, I wonder how many of you have actually read any of Timothy Tredwells books. It is true that he acted in unprofessional ways with the bears in the wilderness. However, he never advocated that others do the same. In fact he emphazied the safest way to respond to a bear encounter throughout his books. He also brought much awareness to the public about bears being on the endagered species list. His books chronicaled the life of brown bears and their habitats and were brilliantly illustrated with close up photos that he took himself.
I am in agreement that Tim acted in ways with the bears that were not of his own teachings. He also obviously had unresolved issues about his life as we all do. His discomfort about his issues were just more blatent than most. He dared to be himself. I think that his life had value as all life does. Why not look to the positive side of the outcome?
Why tear down another human being? Does fear run your life are does love?
Something to think about......... Of course my musings are as much for me as for you the reader. Namaste Kodi bear

 

[carebear]

We're not running down Treadwell per se.

The truth just happens to be that the brown bears of Alaska are not, were not and aren't destined to be in the future(especially in the area he operated in) endangered or threatened on a species level in any way. So all his comments to the contrary were basically self-serving lies.

He, by his published and marketed behaviour, implicitly DID advocate viewing and interacting with bears in an unsafe way ("do as I say, not as I do" being a weak argument at best when your "doing" is how you make your money).

"Fear" has nothing to do with any comments I make about Tim. He was a palpably misguided and, to a degree, insane individual who made a continuous series of poor, self-serving decisions that led to his own and another human's AND two bear's deaths. If Treadwell hadn't tried to play hero (for his own psychological needs) for animals that neither needed nor wanted him, all four of the creatures (two human, two ursine) that ended up dead would quite possibly still be alive.

There was and is a far better way to study bears, interact with bears in the wild and educate the public. Tim's was about as wrong as it is possible to get.

 

[PX15]

I'm a senior citizen living in the country in SE Ga. In our woodlands we have small black bears.. I'm not sure there's ever been a recorded bear attack on a human by a black bear..

AND I'm scared of those bears.

In my old fart opinion ANYONE who ventures into Grizzly, or Brown, or Polar bear country unarmed deserves what he/she gets.

I saw portions of the Treadwell video and he was a complete wacko. One scene showed his girlfriend sitting close to a bear and she was scared to death. As soon as she got away from that bear she should have been on the first thing smoking out of town.

Any adult in America who goes into big bear country unarmed, like Treadwell did is looking for trouble, and I'm just amazed it took so long to find him.

I have no sympathy for Treadwell or the young lady because to be quite honest they were both too stupid to live.

The bear proved it.

If Treadwell and his honey had stayed in California smoking dope there would be two more live bears, and two more live hippy wanna-be's..

Of course that's just my semi-senile redneck opinion.

JP

 

[rbernie]

If you pardon the pun, a few quotes bear repeating.

the brown bears of Alaska are not, were not and aren't destined to be in the future(especially in the area he operated in) endangered or threatened on a species level in any way. So all his comments to the contrary were basically self-serving lies.

There was and is a far better way to study bears, interact with bears in the wild and educate the public. Tim's was about as wrong as it is possible to get.

It's really sad that A) someone made a documentary highlighting a life of inherently self-destructive behavior, and B) a lot of the general public is so blindly sympathetic to animals that they will excuse Treadwell's behavior as necessary.

They are tier one predators, and it is their sole duty as wild animals, in the wild nonetheless, to predate upon the lesser in the food chain. They did absolutely nothing wrong in killing and eating him, and his girlfriend. He was delusional.

Pretty much says anything I would need to say.

 

[Leanwolf]

CAREBEAR - "... "Goodbye cruel world." The world IS cruel. ..."
_________________________________________________________________

NATURE (or the World) is neither cruel, nor benevolent.

NATURE is neutral: indifferent.

Only Mankind can impose "cruelty." Animals (or animate organisms) can not be judged as "cruel," simply because they are acting through evolutionary hard wiring to maintain survival.

FWIW. L.W.

 

[carebear]

Yeah... "the world is cruel"

If you could point out where I or the author of the quote defined "world" to be "nature" I'd appreciate it.

Until then, perhaps the only explicit context in the quote of "a human in the world and his reaction to it" will suffice. Ya know, instead of imposing your interpretation on it to try to make a point.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I agree that Tredwell finally achieved what he set out to -- being eaten by a bear.

Unlike some others, however, I do feel sorrow for the girlfriend. Yes, she was stupid, but her stupidity was that she allowed herself to believe that idiot when he convinced her it would be safe out there with the bears.

He killed her, is the bottom line.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm not sure there's ever been a recorded bear attack on a human by a black bear..

There have been quite a few. Sows attacks are less of a problem than with brown and griz, but they do sometimes turn predatory.

 

[akodo]

Lot of bold faced lies in the above post

In fact he emphazied the safest way to respond to a bear encounter throughout his books.

safest way to respond to a violent bear encounter is NOT with bearspray, it is with a 375 H&H or something similar, combined with the skill and nerves to use it.

He also brought much awareness to the public about bears being on the endagered species list. His books chronicaled the life of brown bears and their habitats and were brilliantly illustrated with close up photos that he took himself.

First statement, false. The bears he was 'protecting' aren't on the endadgered species list.

Seconds statment, actually a negative. Any self respecting nature photographer attempts to NOT interfere with the animals they are photograhing. They stay away, use blinds, and long distance zoom lenses, or whatever it takes to preserve their actual natural behavior for the photos. Timmy didn't do that. He was one step above photographers that set out food to attract bears for photos, that isn't natural.

I think that his life had value as all life does. Why not look to the positive side of the outcome?

All life has value, then why did he risk his life? he basically threw it away, but hey that's his business. He ALSO thew away his girlfriend's life, and put other people in danger coming to get his corpse

Why tear down another human being? Does fear run your life are does love?
Something to think about......... Of course my musings are as much for me as for you the reader. Namaste Kodi bear

Why tear down another human being? Because they are wrong and dangerous. I hope you woudl be willing to stand up and say to Adolph Hitler that his 'final solution' to jews is wrong, or would that be tearing Adolph down, and hence not acceptable. His examples and his suggestions and his ideas put other people AND other wild animals in danger.

Do you know what really helps bears, and a lot of other wildlife? Departments of Natural Resources, who get a lot of funding from hunting licence sales. Plus the land purchased with a part of all hunting licence sales. The truth is the hunter does a lot more for preserving all wildlife than the birdwatcher or the nature photographer.

If he was just a nut off by himself cavorting with the bears, and got eaten, I'd say he was still worthy of scorn. Why take a few bears with him, and put other people at risk? What's worse, he spread his crazy propaganda. not so much that people should go hug bears, but that all hunters are poachers, taht strategic harvesting of bears is wrong, and that these bears are endangered. He lied to get money to do what he wanted. In my book that makes him a con man.

Con men are the type of people who SHOULD be torn down

 

[Cosmoline]

Why not look to the positive side of the outcome?

I agree. One less Kalifornian

 

[nvshooter]

Human tissue is so tender

Would we be any more surprised if someone gets eaten by a shark after having been swimming with them for years? Wild animals don't respect the familiarity that we humans assign to them. They look out for themselves first. If they are hungry and you are right there, get ready for lunch, buddy-- you're it!

 

[Berek]

The bears' exposure to Treadwell and girlfriend probably didn't help much for instilling any fear of humans. Perhaps Treadwell’s familiarity bred carelessness, and his luck ran out. He’s not the first, and won’t be the last.

Well, I wonder how many ppl would walk up to a strange beast (animal, human or ???) that is 6 times their weight and strength, look them in the eye and say "No!" while poking it in the nose. While I feel for the loss of life and the mourning of the friends and family, it sounds like he was starting to think of some of these bears almost as most of us think of our pets.

Familiarity is a bad thing. We humans become complacent and forget ourselves at a time we can least afford to do so.

It's like the story of the scorpion and the toad. The scorpion needs to cross a stream but it can't swim. It sees a toad and begs the toad to give him a ride across the stream. The toad says "But you're a scorpion. You'll sting me and I'll die." To which the scorpion replies "I promise I won't. I just wish to get across the stream." After talking for a while, the toad reluctantly agrees. Halfway across the stream, the scorpion stings the toad. The toad says Why did you sting me? You promised you wouldn't and now we'll both die." The scorpion replied "I can't help it. It's who I am."

Just my $0.02... no offense intended to anyone...

 

[Leanwolf]

CAREBEAR - "The wrold IS cruel... Until then, perhaps the only explicit context in the quote of "a human in the world and his reaction to it" will suffice. Ya know, instead of imposing your interpretation on it to try to make a point."
_________________________________________________________________

Well, Carebear, if you want to "interpret" the word "world" to be something other than a comparatively tiny ball of dirt, rocks, living things, and water flying in an orbit around the sun, fine with me. You certainly have the right o impose your interpretation of my statement any way you wish, in order to make your point of refutation.

I interpret the word "world" to be the exactly that: a mass of dirt, rocks, living things, and water. The world IS Nature. I say again, " Nature (nor the world) is not cruel, nor benevolent. Nature is neutral; indifferent."

People can be cruel (and millions are and have been), but not "the world" or "Nature."

You have your interpretation: I have mine.

L.W.

 

[akodo]

Leanwolf, I hope you realize that the whole cruel world line is in carebear's sigfile, and is quoting another writer. Maybe you should bring up your beef with the originator.

Further, one definition of 'cruel' is 'uncaring' and by your definition of the world, uncaring definately applies.

 

[Offwhite]

My Fiancee

My fiancee rented the DVD because as she put it "wanted to hear a hippie being eaten by a big friggin bear." Unfortunetly to her disapointment she didn't get to hear it but (and maybe its already been mentioned) did anyone else get the feeling that he didn't really give two squats about the bears but more about being in a movie or famous. Through the whole thing he does like five or sixs "takes" and in video diaries - like it is claimed to be - you dont have "takes." It looks like a lot of BS and he was very fake (even down to his made-up name).

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Offwhite

I have to agree with you. This guy was a failed actor trying to grab some spotlight. As I stated before my business partner's sister actually new this guy and said he was a wacko that thought he deserved to be famous.

 

[Offwhite]

What's up PlayboyPenguin? I went to Marshall too (going along with what was said in another thread)

I don't know if its been said (I'm sure it has but I only read like the first five or so pages) but I think that the plan was for Treadwell to die up there all along. He knew that was the only way he would become famous. It's just a shame that he basically conned (I don't think I spelled that correctly) all of these people along the way & an obviously scared person (the girl) had to die as well.

 

[ebd10]

A long time ago when I was a wee babe buck private (well an e-3 anyway) I got to witness two guys (one cpl. and a specialist) think it was would be funny to go up to a beaver we came across and try and pick it up for a photo.

Got to witness a similar event in Panama involving a 3-toed sloth and an idiot that decided it wass fun to kick it over. On his 3rd try, he lost a jungle boot. Fortunately, he didn't lose his foot!