Trouble with .223 ARcomp and Benchmark load OCW method.

[BalisticDave]

Long time lurker, first time poster, I can usually find all the info I need in other threads. I started reloading .223 with H335 and was able to develop a load that is consistently capable of 1.5 MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I have been trying to develop loads for Benchmark and ARComp as I am looking for a powder with more temperature stability. I just can not get the loads for either of these powders to come out accurately. My method is to shoot two rounds, and then let the barrel cool for a few minutes while I shoot one of my other guns.

Reloading Setup:
Single stage press
Lee Pacesetter dies
.003" Shoulder bump
All LC brass trimmed to 2.755 every time
Chamfered and debured
Crimped with Lee FCD

Gun:
S&W M&P 15 Sport II
3-9X Scope
Stock other than that


Loads:
Primers - CCI 450
Bullet- Hornady 55gr FMJBT
COL- 2.200

H335: 24.8 grains (sub 1.5 MOA 5 shot groups at 100 Yards)

Benchmark: 23.9, 24.2, 24.5, 24.8, 25.1, 25.4 (All over the place)

ARComp: 23.9, 24.2, 24.5, 24.8, 25.1, 25.4 (All over the place)

I have included photos of the targets that I used. The Benchmark is on the top and the AR is on the bottom, working from left to right the load increases in grains. I do not have any pics of my H335 loads as I painted over them. I shoot 4 rounds at each load in case I get a flier. I usually pick the tightest 3 and triangulate the POI.



I could just pick the benchmark 23.9 or 25.1, as they are decently accurate but thats not the OCW method. Is it possible that neither of these powders are good in my gun? Should I be changing less than .3 grains per load? Should I just stick with my H335 and not worry about the temperature stability? Maybe develop a summer and winter load with H335?

 

[Blue68f100]

Your shooting a bullet that is not know for stellar accuracy. I had one barrel that would not do anything less than 1.5-2.0" no matter what I tried, 7 different powders.

I would start by loosing the LFCD die. Crimping normally reduces accuracy. Try sorting all your brass by weight, will help to some degree, water volume best. Or just start with good brass. I currently have 2 AR's that will shoot these 55gr FMJBT bullets 1 moa. Both of these have a heavier lands than the barrel that would not shoot them, just an observation. The load is with CFE-223, 27.7gr, @ 2.210-2.220" depending on years of LC brass. This load was the best one for the barrel that would not shoot them. Works fine in my better barrel AR's.

Some powder/bullet/barrels just don't work together.

 

[Demi-human]

Welcome to THR!
You could do worse then the Hornady FMJ, but yes, get a nice bullet, in a higher weight, to perhaps match the twist better.

I don't crimp for my AR. The bullets take a beating to the chamber, I've popped a few out and find the nose smashed in when I use soft points, point being that none have setback any nor have fallen out. I also like the Z-max and TMK's for not becoming deformed on the ride in. A bullet that keeps it's shape till the muzzle is a good thing.

And some powders won't work well. Mine likes TAC and CFE, but there is no guarantee that yours will. Good thing they sell them in one pounders. Give away what won't do well for you and you may just do well for someone else!

 

[Walkalong]

I also like the Z-max

Yep, they shoot well (TAC). (Pay no attention to the lube dent behind the curtain.)


But most any decent SP, Plastic Tipped, or HP bullet will out shoot most any open base FMJ, even a good one like the Hornady.

 

[fotheringill]

Which powder drop are you using and how are you checking the weight in grains?

 

[BalisticDave]

Thanks for the input, I have heard mixed opinions on the crimp, but I am of the impression that it helps keep consistent neck tension. There are advocates of both crimp and no crimp even in the benchrest community.

I have a lee perfect powder measure and a lee beam scale. I know its not the best, but with good technique and care I have found it to be very repeatable. When i set it to 24.0 grains, I dont expect it to give me exactly 24.0 but I do expect it to measure equally... its precise but may not be super accurate. When I am working up loads I measure each charge and set the powder measure a little low and trickle to the desired charge. I dont actually have a trickler but I just use a empty case and slowly tap powder out. I also measure every COL.

The H335 works great and if set up 6 targets and shoot 5 rounds at each, I can get 1.5 MOA on all targets, and I can even get sub 1MOA on at least one of them. All at 100 yards. This makes me confident that I can make consistent loads, and that I am a quazi-decent shooter(I know I have a way to go).

I am beginning to think that the ARcomp and Benchmark should just be kept and used on other weight bullets that I get in the future. After doing a little more research it looks like the arcomp is better with heavier bullets. It is a slower burn and I am noticing that it is burning a little dirty, so in thinking that it may not be burning completely with the 55 gr bullet.

I also found a thread where a guy froze a few h335 rounds and then shot them and compared them to a few rounds that were at summer temps and he could not see a difference. It may not be as temperature sensitive as I first thought. I may just stick with H335 and check for pressure signs. If groups start to open up as the temperature changes I can work up new summer and winter loads. I have a line on a 8lb jug of H335 for 140 plus tax so I may jump on that. The H335 is really shooting well with the 55gr FMJBT bullets.My goal right now is to develop the most accurate rounds I can for less than 20 cents a piece to get practice and become a better shooter. I know im asking for the best of both worlds. I'll have to buy some nicer bullets and maybe shoot 20 or 30 of them when I go to the range to test myself, while I shoot maybe 100 of the 55gr FMJBT's for training.

 

[Walkalong]

There are advocates of both crimp and no crimp even in the benchrest community.

When I was actively shooting Benchrest I never ran into anyone who crimped.

 

[RussellC]

I have long since stopped crimping .223. I dont think it helps that much with actual neck tension, and if the crimp it strong enough to hold the bullet, it is no doubt affecting accuracy.

The Lee scale can be serviceable, but requires much fiddling and experience to get repeatable results. A Dillon beam scale is much easier to use, as are others that dont break the bank.

1.5 moa is really not that great, in terms of working up a load. Trigger time is important, but a better trigger will help immensely.

I nevet got much better than 1.5 with H335 and 55 grain Hornady bullets. Fine for plinking purposes, but with Varget and SMK 52, 53, and 69 grain bullets I have gotten under 1 inch at 100 yards. I still have much to learn, and have improved my brass prep a lot, and also replaced much of my Lee dies with more precision units.

Welcome to THR, this is where I learn from!

Russellc

 

[Axis II]

23.3-24gr of benchmark with a 55gr vmax or 50gr Z max (same bullet just different tip) will shoot a ragged 5 shot hole at 100yards off bags. Ditch the FMJ-BT. 50gr zmax is the same price anyways.

I have also had good luck with benchmark and 55gr Nosler varmegeddon HP.

Also don't crimp. IMO with brass that's under 4-5 firings the neck tension should be good enough for the little recoil the AR produces.

 

[BalisticDave]

Looks like people really like the Z-max's, I found them on midway for 12 cents each, thats not too bad. I still have about 1000 55gr FMJ-BT to load up that I picked up for just under 8 cents each. I guess ill buy some Z-max and give them a try, Ill keep the FMJ-BT's for practice shooting.

As far as the crimp goes, I do not mind removing a step from my loading process and maybe ill try some not crimped at my next range session. Do a comparison for myself. ohihunter, you mentioned that case tension should be enough for 4-5 firings, after that do you just throw your brass away? or do you use it for non precision stuff and crimp it?

 

[BalisticDave]

When I was actively shooting Benchrest I never ran into anyone who crimped.

Good to know, maybe there are just a lot of people out there who are not actually benchrest shooters but claim to be to give their opinion more credit. What actually is seen at the competitions tells me a lot.

 

[Axis II]

Looks like people really like the Z-max's, I found them on midway for 12 cents each, thats not too bad. I still have about 1000 55gr FMJ-BT to load up that I picked up for just under 8 cents each. I guess ill buy some Z-max and give them a try, Ill keep the FMJ-BT's for practice shooting.

As far as the crimp goes, I do not mind removing a step from my loading process and maybe ill try some not crimped at my next range session. Do a comparison for myself. ohihunter, you mentioned that case tension should be enough for 4-5 firings, after that do you just throw your brass away? or do you use it for non precision stuff and crimp it?

I have so much and shooting a bolt gun it doesn't get lost so i just toss it. I have had a few Lake city pieces that seating felt a little mushy and one day didn't have the bullet fully on the top of the magazine and pushed the bolt closed and it shoved the bullet back into the case. That was one that felt a little soft when seating so now i sorted my head stamps by year LC 07 in one box and use them for everything until they get pitched and then move onto LC 04 and so on. Some guys will say you can use a case more if your not using a hot load but i don't trust it. I pick through the range buckets at my club and Brassbombers.com has once fired LC brass for cheap that's only needs sized and trimmed.

 

[BrianC636]

My favorite load is 25 gr. of Benchmark, 55 gr Hornady SP W/C, loaded at 2.25 for my AR with a 1:8 twist barrel.

Even with a crappy 4 x 32 scope on it, it usually shoots sub MOA as long as I do my part.

 

[Demi-human]

I have had a few Lake city pieces that seating felt a little mushy. One day I didn't have the bullet fully on the top of the magazine and pushed the bolt closed, as I did it shoved the bullet back into the case. That was same one that felt a little soft when seating, so now I sort my head stamps by year, LC 07 in one box, and use them for everything until they get pitched. And then move onto LC 04 and so on. Some guys will say you can use a case more if your not using a hot load, but I don't trust it. I pick through the range buckets at my club and Brassbombers.com has once fired LC brass for cheap that's only needs sizing and trimming.

Annealing! If one has a particular set of brass that appleals to them, case capacity or year or brand, one can keep them running much longer by annealing them. I have a set of WCC 'thirteen' cases that have been through my bolt action over eight times.(I then lost the little paper that I keep with the sets of brass I make up, so now plus two or three cycles. I forget which.) I am considering recycling them because they are only fifteen cases, which throw off the use-of-component counts. I am now sure that annealing works. They size and seat the same now as ever. It is now a step in my rifle handloading procedure, every cycle.

 

[Axis II]

Annealing! If one has a particular set of brass that appleals to them, case capacity or year or brand, one can keep them running much longer by annealing them. I have a set of WCC 'thirteen' cases that have been through my bolt action over eight times.(I then lost the little paper that I keep with the sets of brass I make up, so now plus two or three cycles. I forget which.) I am considering recycling them because they are only fifteen cases, which throw off the use-of-component counts. I am now sure that annealing works. They size and seat the same now as ever. It is now a step in my rifle handloading procedure, every cycle.

Ive thought about it but my OCD and slight fear i figured just toss them. I dont go hot with my paper loads but due with the varmint loads so i might be able to get more than 5 rounds out of a piece but i just toss it to be safe.