TSA experience - re. handgun checking

[ETCss Phil McCrackin]

I recently flew from Seattle-Tacoma to Dallas Love field and back again for my leave period. My Springfield 1911 was locked in a Lifejacket case and I had, as always printed out every bit of documentation I could find. (TSA Regs, Carrage requirements, Southwest rules, etc.) The initial declaration was uneventful but when I got to the TSA booth, the guy behind the counter said. "No, I'm sorry, we can't accept this. The gun can't be exposed." To which I responded, "Actually, nothing in regulation x, y, or z, indicates anything about exposure."

He promptly said that he would get his supervisor and I waited about 20min until he arrived.

The supervisor took one look at the lifejacket enclosed .45 and said the same thing, "The muzzle can't be exposed." I again responded, "Look, I know I'm that pain in the butt traveler that thinks he knows more than you do, but I have all the applicable regulations printed out right here, and the only requirements are that the firearm be in a locked, hard-sided case, and only I may retain the key. I understand what you guys are saying, but there is no, repeat, no requirement that the muzzle be enclosed." He hemmed and hawed a few minutes, until he called the TSA certification guy to the counter. This last guy took one look at the lifejacket and said, "Oh yeah, that's fine."

Now, all those guys were polite and in no way do I have a problem with any of them. I mean, how would any of us respond if someone showed up to our place of work and started telling us that we were wrong about something? But, the moral to this story is the importance of doing your homework and/or having documentation when you are in any situation where your butt may be on the line.

Dallas Love Field had no issues, this or any of the other times I have used the lifejacket as a case. Of course, neither did SEATAC until now.

 

[uneasy_rider]

I think a hard side case is generally something that encloses the firearms completely. Part of the reason you want a hard side case is to protect your gun from damage. I guess you talked them into it, but I think you ought to by a cheap hardside case, and avoid having to mess around with the TSA for 30 minutes. I expect you will have similar problems each time you fly with that thing.

 

[The Unknown User]

Not everyone knows everything you do. It sounds more like this was an argument over semantics and a technicality, and less about employees' ignorance.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Well, your arguments worked. I'd still prefer a true case that fully enclosed the gun. A full case offers better protection, and, to my mind most importantly, obscures the fact that it contains a gun if the bag is opened for inspection or if the bag comes open through misadventure.

 

[rondog]

Ain't no way I'm gonna risk putting one of my 1911's in my baggage. Those TSA goons rifle through any suitcase they want, and too much stuff comes up "missing". Not to mention the thieving baggage monkeys too. I don't fly unless I have to, and I can't think of a good enough reason to take a gun with me that's worth the risk of it being stolen.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Ain't no way I'm gonna risk putting one of my 1911's in my baggage. Those TSA goons rifle through any suitcase they want, and too much stuff comes up "missing". Not to mention the thieving baggage monkeys too. I don't fly unless I have to, and I can't think of a good enough reason to take a gun with me that's worth the risk of it being stolen.

Hmm, my real life experience is the exact opposite of what you "think" will happen.

I travel for a living, I'm exec platinum on AA. I travel with a Sig 239 or a 1911 on at least half my flights; if I'm going to a state where I can have the thing.

I've never lost anything from a bag and rarely had any more than a short delay here and there over TSA agent confusion surrounding the gun. 95% of the time they don't even blink when I tell them it's there.

I wouldn't use a Lifejacket under any circumstance.

Part of the regulations require that you show the ticket agent that the firearm is unloaded, and she gives you a paper tag to put in the gun case.

With the Lifejacket you have to pull out something that now EVERYONE in line knows is a handgun.

You're asking for attention that you do not want.

I field strip whatever I'm taking with me, place it in a nondescript plastic case, open the box slightly to show the ticket agent that it's unloaded and put it back in the bag.

Having the gun in pieces means that I don't have to take it out of the case to show it's unloaded, one less way to draw attention.

Neither TSA nor the airlines mark or tag the bag in any way to identify that a firearm is onboard.

I use a combination lock on the hard case and a standard TSA lock on the outer suitcase.

I've been doing it for years and there's rarely any problem.

Don't make it complicated and you will be OK.

The Lifejacket thing makes it WAY too complicated and seems like a VERY bad idea.

 

[hnk45acp]

+1 on lifejackets being a bad idea. Stuff can get into the barrel or it could damaged especially in a suitacase full of stuff

 

[musher]

I don't think the point of the post was whether using a lifejacket instead of a regular case was a good idea. (I'd prefer a regular hard case myself, in fact)

The point, and I think it's a good one, is that the law, as written, is the law and we should be willing and prepared to demand the TSA adhere to the minutia of the law--just as they seem to be willing to make the same demand of us.

 

[M1911]

I think it could be argued that the lifejacket isn't a case. It is a safety device, but it does not completely enclose the gun. So I think the TSA agent's initial statement that it was not compliant with the law was, in fact, correct.

 

[big_bang]

I've never had any problems checking my pieces - done it many times.

I use a simple hard case, make my declarations, and go on my way. It sounds like you were testing the system and arguing semantics. Can you? Sure. Smart? Not IMO.

Your bag with the firearm in it is known as such by the airline and TSA - that's why it's declared. I believe that they probably assign a special note in their computer that it contains a firearm. I'm going to further venture that they REALLY don't want that bag to go missing, and enact employee controls to that end. If it did get lost, they then have an unaccounted firearm floating around in an airport, and there is then liability on their part if bad things happen with it. I could see the airline interrogating every handler who had anything to do with it (same for the TSA) ad nauseum until they came up with it...they simply don't want that hanging over their head as a liability. While some "goons" may go through a bag and steal an I-pod, my first guess is that in most cases upon seeing a declared gun they'd zip that bag right back up and send it on it's way.

 

[ETCss Phil McCrackin]

As far as intent of the post goes, Musher hit it right on. I wanted to emphasize the importance of knowing the laws and regulations whenever you do something which may stand even a small chance of being questioned. And really, between flying, Open Carry, Concealed Carry, and activism of any kind, we all run at least a little risk. This is why I have all the state carry regs for WA printed out in miniature in my wallet.

As far as my choice of case is concerned;

1. Is a shiny chrome, locked case (or any small locked case for that matter) really any less attractive to theft than what I had? Maybe, maybe not.
2. Counting there and back, I have checked that item no less than 12 times without incident and since it meets the letter of the law, I saw no reason for concern.
3. Now, considering the possibility of damage to the muzzle, (a good point that I had not thought about) and taking into account the hassle I just had, I believe I'll be buying a different case for travel just to be on the safe side.

 

[psyopspec]

I checked a gun prior to flying thrice in the last two weeks. No problems with the weapon itself, but the TSA guy that inspected decided to swab my checked luggage for explosives. I told him I was in the military, and a shooter, and that his swab was going to come back positive due to all the gear that was in the bag. He swabbed. It came back positive. He asked for my explanation. I felt like a well-protected citizen.

It was so good for both of us, I about needed a cigarette afterward.

I personally wouldn't go with the Life Jacket, but you do have a point in that knowing the law can only work to one's benefit.

 

[anarchris]

The OP wasn't asking our opinion on the lifejacket

He was informing us on his experience with low paid bureaucrats, many of whom are anti gun and like to grope granny while ignoring suspicious middle eastern young men with one way tickets & no luggage, carrying box cutters.

The point was, if you know the law and your rights you CAN travel.
Even if you do choose to use an inferior case.

 

[HighVelocity]

and the only requirements are that the firearm be in a locked, hard-sided case, and only I may retain the key.

IN a locked container. The muzzle sticking out is not IN a locked container.

You got away with it, great. However, I would not try it again. Get a locking container that completely encloses the weapon.

My .02

 

[PennsyPlinker]

I was detained briefly by a TSA agent in Pensacola FL while transporting a S&W .38 Special, but that was because we were discussing various modifications and accessories available for the AR-15.

 

[mbt2001]

No, I'm sorry, we can't accept this. The gun can't be exposed." To which I responded, "Actually, nothing in regulation x, y, or z, indicates anything about exposure."

+1

Get a real case, but +1 for making those goat rodeo POS noobs life difficult. I hate flying these days and will not do if it can be avoided.

 

[Nate C.]

I would submit that isn't the TSA guys you have to worry about ripping off your stuff. It's the baggage handlers working for the airlines. TSA screens it and sends it on, but the luggage handlers have continuous and unmonitored contact with your unmentionables.

I've never had any issues checking my gear on multiple occasions, both pre- and post-9/11. I have had to help explain the regs to a few airline ticket agents. Good idea bringing the documentation.

 

[Lonestar.45]

It always pays to have the documentation and know what you're talking about.
That said, yeah, I would absolutely ditch the lifejacket and get a real case. I could not afford to be delayed 20, 30 mins while the TSA gets two different upper level supervisors to come over and okay everything. That hassle alone would make me get a real case, legal issues and letter of the law aside. The last thing I need at the airport is more hassle, no matter whose right or wrong.

 

[Don Gwinn]

I have to fly next month, and my gun's going in the most secure hard case I can find in on my workbench. Their squeamishness aside, that gun has given me good service over the years and does not deserve to have its muzzle scraped along a tarmac.

 

[BAT1]

Get a hard case, who knows, an oxygen bottle could come loose or something and damage it. Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[romma]

I lock my Keltec in a honeywell steel case that cost $11.95 that encloses it completely.

 

[4sooth]

TSA Firearm Rules

My daughter is a Ground Safety Co-ordinator for Northwest Airlines.As such she is required to-among other things-be up to date on the rules for travel with firearms.

Each airline has their own regs which determine how you are required to declare and transport a firearm on THEIR airline.

Northwest policy is that no employee of their airlline is to view or inspect the firearm at any time as they feel this creates the possibility of a bailment relative to future use/misuse/theft or any other misdeed concerning the firearm.All the agent is supposed to do is ask if the firerm is unloaded and have you fill out the red tag and place it in the suitcase which contains the firearm.

I have never had the least trouble flying out of New Orleans.However at various other airports I have encountered endless variations of what is/is not correct where the law is concerned.Flying out of Los Angeles to New Orleans resulted in the Northwest counter being virtually shut down for 30 minutes while the TSA and Northwest people tried to find out whether a civilian could fly with a firearm in check-in baggage.

My personal experience is that few TSA folks know the exact law and so put a personal spin on the regs.

 

[Thumper]

I fly with both handguns and long guns quite a bit.

I've yet to have any trouble with the TSA.

There's no way I would attempt to fly using the LifeJacket device to enclose a pistol.