Tuner and the Rockwell Tester

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Tuner,

Have you ever submitted a recent genre' Colt MIM sear or disconnector to your buddy for testing?
Be sure to lap both sides of the sear flat, to prevent rocking while testing.
Have him locate the punch over a solid webbed area to prevent flexing.
Also......I'd love to hear results of your hammer test!

Long ago and far away, on another forum, two noted smiff's were arguing the merits of two popular rear sights. Smith 'A' maintained that his sights were superior, being machined from a higher grade of steel.
He said that the sights favored by Smith 'B' were much softer and prone to both installation and carry damage.
To enhance his point of view, he loudly proclaimed that a sample of each would soon be submitted 'to engineers' for testing.
Smith 'B' countered that his own 'testing by engineers' would be done that afternoon!. Yup! Train engineers!! Smith 'B' gave them two rear sights the 4 o'clock coal train test!
As in "Let's see which one makes the larger pancake".

I was and still am amused.

Chuck
 
"C" Scales

Howdy Chuck,

Have done so on 3 MIM sears...2 Colts and a McCormick. As you already know, the MIM sears are a bit harder than machined steel sears...but not all that much. The two Colt sears averaged...as near as I can remember...
about 58, while the MCM hit a whopping 62. The MCM also made a strange sound as the punch was makin' its dent. Not sure what it meant, but it
could have been a stress crack on the inside. It never broke through to the surface.

The USGI sears have always been pretty much middle of the road between
43 and 50 (specs) and the Commercial Colt sears have generally run to the high end of that range, with a few going a little over. One Nowlin Pro-match steel sear that was sacrificed for the test...a used one...made it to
52-point-something...Can't remember offhand.

The hammer test bent both types, and lightly cracked one leg on the Colt MIm sear...but it took a few hard licks. So...MIM sears proved quite a bit tougher than I had given them credit for, so it would appear that MIM is PROBABLY an acceptable material for a sear. (He grudgingly admitted) but
I'm not too sure about the thin stem of a disconnect. We've already seen how MIM extractors hold up.
 
Mo' Rockwell

Okay...back!

Since this subject comes up from time to time, I thought it might make for an interesting discussion.

As anybody who has thought it through knows, the hardness of any given part is a compromise between durability and longevity. Too soft, and the part wears out fast. Too hard and it can be brittle. These hardness requirements are set forth by the engineers and designers to insure the
best of both, as far as it can possibly be achieved....Compromise. The
fly in the ointment in any design. So we have it that any part which must wear well AND resist impact stresses must be hard AND tough. In other words...How hard is TOO hard?

Another point that rarely condsidered by any except students of engineering and design, is that whenever two parts are in contact with each other under pressure, that the softer part will wear faster than the harder part. So...it stands to reason that unless a hammer and sear are
very close to the same hardness, one will wear while the other will only be burnished. Exact matches are possible, but would require testing every part until a perfect mate could be found. Not acceptable, since Rockwell testing very often destroys the part. So, we accept another compromise.
We spot test a lot or group of parts to insure as nearly as we can that all will fall within an acceptable range, and go with that.

This leads to case-hardening. Case-hardening makes the surface of the steel harder than the material under the skin. It's normally done to something on the order of 1018 "Cold-Rolled" steel that doesn't harden
by heating to a pre-set temperature above the lower critical line, and quenching. This temperature is determined by how hard the part needs to be, as well as the method of quenching the part. There are oil-hardening steels...water-hardening steels...and air-hardening steels.

Quenching in a fluid shocks the steel...depending on how cold the fluid is.
Quenching a red-hot workpiece in ice water can actually cause the steel to fracture. Oil is gentler on the steel...and the hardening process can change with the number of parts that are quenched in it. The more parts that go into the fluid, the warmer it becomes...and the "softer" the resulting part will be. As long as the hardness isn't above or below the blueprint specs, it's acceptable in the design compromise. So...the temperature of the steel AND the quench must be controlled.

But back to Case-hardened steel.

The hard "case", or surface of the steel can be file-hard, while leaving the
steel below the surface soft and malleable...which serves to create a material that's hard as Hell's Hinges, but not brittle. Here, the temperature is even more critical because the depth of the case is critical. Too shallow, and the hard case will wear through earlier than it should, and once the soft underbelly is exposed to friction, the part will fail quickly.

Case-hardening worked very well a century ago, when steel alloys were limited pretty much to wrought iron and cold-rolled steel...and it still does today, although case hardening a part is slower and much more tedious than heating and quenching. The part is usually sealed in a container with
a carbon bearing substance...bone meal is one such...and heated slowly
in a furnace. The temperature is held for a set period of time, depending on how deep the case needs to be...and brought back to ambient temperature by simply turning off the furnace and waiting for it to cool by
convection. Small, or thin parts can be hardened more quickly, but the depth of the case can't be as closely controlled outside of the furnace...and even then, there's a fine line between a perfectly case hardened part and
a part that'll break like glass. To demonstrate, put on a pair of safety goggles and some heavy clothing and welding gloves, clamp a 6-inch
mill file in a vise, and see how far it'll bend before it snaps.

The problem with case-hardening is that rockwell testing of the part often gives a false reading because the diamond point used to test the part can go deeper than the casing...OR...it compresses the softer material underneath, which also produces a false reading. Testing case-hardened parts require a different method, and even that is often "iffy".

Tool steels have a high enough carbon content to harden without using an outside source. They harden throughout the whole part...the consistency of which depends greatly on the quality of the steel...or as to how many impurities it has in it. The fewer the impurities, the more consistent the hardening throughout the steel. The better the control of the smelting and alloying process, the more consistent it is too. Think of it like mixing cake batter. If you don't get it blended thoroughly, you get pockets of flour
in the cake.

To the machinists and toolmakers out there: Can you imagine lockwork
made of HSS? (High-Speed Steel) How 'bout THAT for some long-lasting lockwork!! Expensive to be sure...but one set would wear out 50 guns...
:cool: NOTE: HSS is the stuff that conventional drill bits are made of...
just FYI.

Cheers all!

Tuner
 
Hard sears.

Would it make practical sense to do a trigger job on hammer and sear..Heat em up..quench in Casenite..polish on Hard Arkansas.. and iinstall??

salty.
 
Case -hardened Trigger Job

Howdy Salty,

Sure, you could do that if the parts were made of cold-rolled steel. Smith & Wesson case-hardened their lockwork for years...but with high-carbon steel, the heating would alter the hardness of the steel during the process...and unless it was quenched correctly, would either go back to dead soft, or become brittle.

The other part of the problem is that the size of the sear tip and hammer hooks would lead to warpage, which would likely alter the precise angles common in a conventional trigger job.
 
'Quench'..bad choice of words..

'Quench' was a bad choice of words on my part..sorry.

I've never used Casenite but will admit that I once heard someone's second cousin twice removed who overheard a conversation at the local gun club remark that Casenite was the cats whiskers for making sure that the hammer hooks and sear angle stayed compatable with one another longer.

If the hammer didn't 'follow through' to the half cock notch before the Casenite treatment, it wouldn't follow through for beaucoup thousands of rounds as the freshly cut ,new metal exposed ,hammer hooks and sear angles were now case hardened.

But then again, you hear all kinds of 'urban myths' at gun clubs. Just wondering if this one had any practical thread of reality.

Understand me now, that this conversation has been filtered with about two decades of selective memory recall.

Thanks for the reply Tuner,

salty.
 
Quench

I dunno, Salty...I've never tried case-hardening steel that's already been hardened by conventional methods...but I'd have to say that it wouldn't work. Re-heating to a lower temperature, and quenching again usually results in "drawing" some of the hardness back to a lower level. Allowing the part to air-cool would soften it even more. That's often done whenever the grain structure of the steel needs to be smaller and tighter, but the piece needs to be softer than the result of the first heat-treatment.
Drawing the part to make it less brittle is common practice for some applications.

Re-heating to the SAME temperature, and quenching again would result in the same hardness as the piece was after the first procedure...so unless somebody has some information that I haven't heard of, I'll hafta call this one Locker Room Sheep Dip. Lotta folks around who are perfectly willin' to blow smoke up your pantaloons, buddy.

Anybody else ever heard of case-hardening a pre-heat treated part?
Lemme hear from ya. Enquirin' minds wanna know...
 
As a metallurgist I,ve done all kinds of things but of course I know what I'm doing.You can case harden a hardened part but it then has to be rehardened. And to get a reliable job[reliability is what we're talking about ] we really have to know what type of steel we have and then control temperature and times during carburizing and hardening....Design of a part involves many variables and all variable s must be chosen properly.There used to be hammers and sears made from a tool steel but I don't know if they are still available but then of course people whined that they were too expensive !!....Btw if you case harden a powder metal part you see some weird things in a microscope . I haven't done that with MIM parts ,I wonder how that works.....It all comes down to picking the right materials and processes with good QC and a reasonable price.....Production carburizing is done not by pack carburizing but with gas, and the Tennifer treatment of guns such as Glock is a gas carbonitriding process that adds carbon and nitrogen. That type of treatment can be further enhanced to provide corrosion resistance .
 
The Answer Cometh!

Ah! Thanks mete. A question looms:

In casing a hardened part, is it normally done in a furnace and allowed to
cool slowly...or is it quenched? Also: After casing, during the re-hardening process...does the casing go deeper than in normal case-hardening?
Most importantly: Does the re-hardening process draw the casing back to a lower level? What types of steels lend themselves to the process...
or can it be done with any high-carbon steel? How exacting do the re-hardening temperatures need to be in order to get it right?

I've never tried to do it...nor have I heard of anybody doing it. I've always either heated and quenched hardenable steel, or case-hardened. It would seem that during the re-hardening process, that the carbon in the case would make the casing inconsistent over the surface unless closely controlled temperatures/times were adhered to.

Interesting...The wheels, they are a-turnin' in my punkin head.:scrutiny:
 
Some of the questions are hard to answer since there are so many variables .Carburizing can be done by packing, gas , or salt .You may have a small part such as a 1911 sear or very large bearing or gear. You may want just a very thin case for wear resistance or thick case for structural strength. Temperature and time are important .While higher temps give deeper case they also give grain growth....Typically carburizing is done with alloy steels containing .20% C and the case has carbon levels of .80-1.00 %....In production they try to quench direct from carburizing temperatures which are on the same level as hardening temps [1600-1750F]....Back when S&W was a total QC disaster ~1980, I worked on fixing many new revolvers . Often these had insufficient case or case so thin that a small amount of trigger job polishing would remove it . I would then use Kasenit to case harden the hammer notch area and sear. Directly quenching it and not worrying about the rest of the hammer.This is not the proper way ,which should have been done by S&W, but a way to save the part.......The carbon permits the steel to form martensite and in higher amounts wear resistant carbides .To get the martensite it must be quenched .If the part is rehardened the time and temperature aren't enough to change the case.
 
Hmmmm

What about pack carburizing alloys with higher than .2% carbon? Fairly thin parts, mainly for wear resistance...Thinkin' about a barrel here, and wondering if it's feasible to case the bore about .005 deep without making the rest of the barrel too hard for the rest of the thickness. (Pack the bore with material and seal it...heat to carburizing temperature, and allow it to cool overnight in the furnace.) Any merit to the concept?
 
Inconsistent?
Yup, that is why a case hardened "low number" '03 Springfield would blow up if overloaded or abused.

From Hatcher's Notebook:

Springfield Armory Class C Steel
.20-.30% C
1.10-1.30% Mn
.15%-.35% Si
.05% MAX S and P

Original "single heat treat" or "caseharden."

Drop forge and cool slowly in charcoal.
Pickle to remove scale, rehit in forge to straighten.
Machine.
Heat in bone to 1500 F for 4 hours, then oil quench.

Eyeball temperature control would give some brittle ones. All were pretty hard through and through even under the case.

Improved "double heat treat." for Class C

Drop forge and air cool in an open pan.
Pickle and rehit.
Anneal- Pack in charcoal, heat to 1500F, cool in furnace.
Pickle, inspect, machine.

Heat in bone to 1500 F for 2 1/2 hours, then oil quench.
Reheat to 1300 F in a salt bath for 5 minutes, then oil quench.
Draw at 350 F in a hot oil bath.
Check hardness, Scleroscope 45-60 = Rockwell C 33-44.

These are hard to wreck and very smooth in operation.


As mete says, there are a lot of case hardening procedures, in cyanide salt baths, in non-cyanide salt baths, in methane or ammonia atmospheres. Think Tennifer and Mellonite. Color case hardening in a bone pack is kind of a luxury product these days. Note that you can case harden without colors. Most of the color is from quenching in an aerated tank of witches brew salt water solutions. Pack hardening is not necessary for hardness or color. indicated by the British term for the appearance, "cyanide mottling."
 
Overlapping posts.
Tuner, you must quench to harden the case where carbon is absorbed at the surface of the metal. Just like through hardening a piece of carbon steel.

You control surface hardness and core toughness by quenching and tempering/drawing temperatures based on the carbon content of the core and case. It is possible to split the difference in the transition temperatures of the different carbon contents and get that result.

There was an outfit that offered a bore hardening treatment but I haven't seen anything from them in some time.
 
Often these had insufficient case or case so thin that a small amount of trigger job polishing would remove it . I would then use Kasenit to case harden the hammer notch area and sear. Directly quenching it and not worrying about the rest of the hammer.This is not the proper way

Now you tell me!

I also did this a couple of times in the '80s. I was successful both times, and was rather proud of my accomplishment. Both guns are still going strong.

I guess it is better to be lucky than it is to be good.

Most people thought I was crazy for even attempting such a thing. I thought it was an economical alternative to buying a new hammer.

For the record, I was not responsible for wrecking the hammers originally.:D
 
Quench

Jim said:

Overlapping posts.
Tuner, you must quench to harden the case where carbon is absorbed at the surface of the metal. Just like through hardening a piece of carbon steel.
_____________

Hey Jim,

I've case-hardened parts both ways...Large or thick parts packed and allowed to cool in the furnace...small parts by heating with a torch, covering with kasenit and quenching in oil as the color changed...
Mainly wondering if there was a method to harden a bore with a carburizing material and allowing it to harden by convection instead of
quenching in oil to hold warpage to a minimum.

I'll have to study on it and see. I've got an old barrel here somewhere...:scrutiny:
 
Exposing Jim Watson

Ladies and laddies...after watchin' Jim for over a year, I've about decided that he's the forum sleeper. He oughta change his tagline to:
"I have a few opinions and a whole SLEW of facts."...'cause he rarely offers
anything BUT a fact...and it's normally dead on.

Jim...Time to fess up! If you ain't a ringer, I ain't a redneck pistol fixer.:cool:
 
Carburizing the bore is possible but there is certainly the possibility of warping the barrel. But why bother when ,if you buy real guns [P7s and good shotguns], you get chrome plated bores .
 
OK, I see where Tuner is headed.

But, I see problems.

If we fire rapidly, the bores of our favourite blasters get hot. I don't know how hot, but they do get hot.

I think that there is room for research here. Some barrels are slow, some are fast. Between polygonal rifling, conventional rifling, tapered bore, and other technologies, (chrome lining, moly, whatever), perhaps we can squeeze out an additional 5 to 10 per cent velocity while remaining within conventional pressures. Of course, slide velocity increases, but with square bottom firing pin stops, that problem can be remedied.

BTW, I found that oil was inferior to Budweiser as a quenching liquid back in the 80's. :p
 
Tuner, I am not a polymath expert, just have a packrat memory.

Re barrel bore hardening. I recall reading that uncontrolled and unpreventable barrel bore hardening is one large source of erosion and wear. Shoot the gun and you are blowing hot carbon (and nitrogen) compounds down a steel tube. Sounds like case hardening, inside out, sorta. The surface gets hard and brittle and the temperature cycling cracks it so chunks break out. I have seen borescope pictures that look like a dried up river bed.

As far as velocity goes, I keep thinking that a smoothbore firing a large caliber round ball would put lots of energy downrange with manageable pressures and be accurate enough for self defense. Heck, a flintlock dueler got the job done at 20 paces, and it was considered ungentlemanly to use a rifled pistol. But the government doesn't want Americans fooling around with smoothbore pistols.

Oh, I forgot to mention.
If you really care how hard the case or plating is on a part, there is a thing called a Rockwell SUPERFICIAL hardness tester. I gather it uses a teeny little indentor to just ding the skin.
 
Heck, a flintlock dueler got the job done at 20 paces, and it was considered ungentlemanly to use a rifled pistol.

It certainly worked on Alexander Hamilton, but not on Andrew Jackson.

I think that modern politics would be more interesting if the code duello was reinstated.
 
Jim, years back there was an issue of American Rifleman [I wish I had a copy] that had a detailed explaination of "erosion" including a proper metallurgical examination. "Erosion [ a wearing away] is a misnomer. What happens is the the carbon in the hot gases 'carburize' the steel. The then high carbon steel cracks but it should not be called "erosion". Barrel steel is usually 4140.
 
Rifleman

Mete said:

>Jim, years back there was an issue of American Rifleman that had a detailed explaination of "erosion"<
___________________________

I remember that article, and it was one of the reasons that I asked about
casing the bore from the inside. The carburizing done on firing is uncontrolled, and hardens only a fraction of a thou at a time...and not evenly at that. Would it cause the steel on the surface of the bore to be
more resistant to that gas carburizing/cracking/erosion...if it were controlled
and .005 inch deep...or would it just give the fractures a head start?
I'd be willing to experiment with the theory...I think I know where an old
furnace is that'll still work...it's even got a timer on it so that nobody has to
babysit it while it's cookin'. Set it and forget it. It would also make for a good topic of discussion over at the metallurgy lab at Forsyth Tech.
If the furnace isn't there any more...I still have another route to take
during Christmas break. It's known as the "Government Work Curriculum." :cool: Been a lotta gun work done in that machine shop.
The dean's cool as long as the guns aren't together and that enough parts are missing to prevent assembly. (I miss the good ol' days, when we could
get permission to take guns into the shop after classes were over for the day...but that's been awhile. :( )
 
The problem isn't how the barrel gets to be high carbon . It's the problem that it IS high carbon .Then you have the formation of martensite and subsequent cracking.
 
Carbon

mete said:

>>The problem isn't how the barrel gets to be high carbon . It's the problem that it IS high carbon .Then you have the formation of martensite and subsequent cracking.<<

I figgered...but since I never tried it...and don't know anybody who has...I thought it might be worth a shot. (Pun intended)

Welp...back to the drawin' board, I reckon.
____________________________

And!

>>But why bother when ,if you buy real guns [P7s and good shotguns], you get chrome plated bores.<<

...Or a Norinco...:p
 
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